Why Luis Robert is Ridiculously Overvalued
Here we go again! Every season there’s at least one mega-hyped player expected to make his much anticipated debut during the year, and his market price reflects the unbelievable excitement. The last time we did this, it was Vladimir Guerrero Jr., who I specifically called out at the end of February last year for being insanely priced. Now, it’s White Sox outfielder and seventh overall ranked prospect Luis Robert.
Among all NFBC drafts beginning in February, Robert has been the 22nd outfielder selected on average, with an overall ADP of 80. He has gone as early as 59th and as late as 112th. Here are some of the shocking outfielders being selected after him, on average:
Joey Gallo & Jorge Soler — 30 homers a lock for both, assuming good health
Eddie Rosario & Marcell Ozuna — strong 4-category production likely
Andrew Benintendi — talk about recency bias after a down fantasy season, he has basically averaged a 17/17 season throughout his short career
And the list goes on (and these are just outfielders!). The point is, these guys have already done it, proving their hitting chops and fantasy skills over multiple seasons (okay, so maybe Soler has done it just once, but that’s more than Robert has!).
So aside from some head-scratching names being selected after Robert who seem significantly safer, let me tell you why drafting him 80th overall is nuts and my Pod Projections are more bearish than the majority of the other systems.
His Plate Discipline is Atrocious
When I first started playing fantasy baseball more than 20 years ago, I was all about hitter plate discipline and BB/K rate. I’ve come way down from that, as I now look at every skill metric individually. But that doesn’t mean the combination of the two is meaningless. If you ignore his Rookie League lines, Robert owns an ugly 5.4% walk rate to go with his acceptable 24% strikeout rate. That makes for an unsightly 0.225 BB/K ratio. That would have ranked him ninth worst among qualified hitters last season.
Of course, if you look at the names even worse or marginally better, you realize it doesn’t mean a whole lot. Tim Anderson sat at the bottom, and yet he posted a .363 wOBA. Then you have a fantasy stud like Javier Baez, along with power guys in Randal Grichuk, Eloy Jimenez, and Jose Abreu (would have ranked 10th with Robert included). So clearly one can succeed with terrible plate discipline.
That said, it certainly raises the risk, especially when he’s never come to the plate in a Major League game, so we don’t know how pitchers are going to exploit the weak discipline. Simple math proves that there actually is a strong correlation between BB/K ratio and wOBA:
| Among Qualified Hitters | BB% | K% | BB/K | wOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Top 15 BB/K | 13.4% | 15.5% | 0.879 | 0.387 |
| Bottom 15 BB/K | 4.8% | 22.6% | 0.215 | 0.322 |
That’s quite the stark difference! Of course, a lot of that gap is due solely to the separation in walk rates. Obviously, walks contribute to wOBA, so a higher walk rate is going to boost that mark. It’s not a totally fair comparison, but it does illustrate how difficult it is to perform strongly at the dish with a poor BB/K mark.
The other related issue is that with such a low walk rate, Robert is going to be on base less. You know what that means? Of course you do…fewer stolen base and runs scored opportunities. That directly cuts into his fantasy value.
I’m not the only one to notice such issues, as our own Eric Longenhagen included this in Robert’s top 100 prospect blurb:
Robert does have plate discipline issues. He chases a lot of breaking balls out of the zone and it took a lot of convincing from industry folks to move him this high on the list even though Robert has the surface-level traits that tend to make me irrationally excited.
That sounds like a weakness Major League pitchers are going to exploit over and over again until Robert adjusts.
He Swings and Misses a Lot
You wouldn’t know it by just looking at his strikeout rate, which is actually perfectly acceptable typically sitting in the low-to-mid 20% range, but there’s a potentially hidden issue. Unless you have customized your stats table to include the metric, you probably had no idea that Robert’s minor league SwStk% marks have been alarming.
Two years ago, I summarized the averages in a vast array of stats and underlying metrics for every minor league level and compared them to MLB. Those calculations make it easier to translate minor league performance to the Majors.
Let’s compare Robert’s SwStk% marks to the MLB average for that year. I’ll use my translation factor calculated in the linked to article above to calculate an MLB-equivalent mark:
| Season | Level | AB | SwStr% | MLB Translation Factor | Translated SwStk% | MLB Avg |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2017 | Rookie | 84 | 28.4% | 0.574 | 16.3% | 10.5% |
| 2018 | Rookie | 18 | 33.3% | 0.574 | 19.1% | 10.7% |
| 2018 | A | 45 | 12.4% | 0.885 | 11.0% | 10.7% |
| 2018 | A+ | 123 | 18.5% | 0.864 | 16.0% | 10.7% |
| 2019 | A+ | 75 | 16.6% | 0.864 | 14.3% | 11.2% |
| 2019 | AA | 226 | 16.8% | 1.001 | 16.8% | 11.2% |
| 2019 | AAA | 202 | 21.1% | 1.020 | 21.5% | 11.2% |
Wowzers! Robert has been a whiff machine throughout his minor league career. Just once did he manage to get his translated SwStk% anywhere near the MLB average, and that came in just 45 at-bats at Single-A. In 2019, he showed a worrisome trend of increased translated SwStk% marks at each higher level.
And that 21.5% mark during his first taste of Triple-A action? That would have easily been the highest mark among qualified MLB hitters, besting none other than Javier Baez, who posted an 18.4% SwStk%. In fact, going back as far as FanGraphs has the data for (2002), only one qualified player has even posted a SwStk% over 20%. That honor went to Josh Hamilton back in 2012.
Robert simply cannot succeed by swinging and missing so often.
One wonders how he has managed to strike out at such reasonable rates given the propensity for the whiff. I would guess that he swings at just about everything. You know who else does? Javier Baez, who ranked 10th in Swing% among 135 qualified hitters last year. With Baez’s name continuing to pop up, it would seem he makes for an apt comp for Robert, though perhaps the former’s power/speed combo tilts a bit more toward power, while Robert’s mix is opposite. Remember, though, Baez represents Robert’s ultimate player type upside, and does not make for a reasonable projection match.
He Hits Wayyyy Too Many Fly Balls
So according to Longenhagen’s prospect blurb linked to earlier, the White Sox made some subtle changes to Robert’s swing in 2019 that led to his offensive outburst. What also resulted from those changes was a batted ball distribution flip. While the sample size was tiny in 2018, he went from a ground ball hitter to an extreme fly ball one in 2019. His fly ball rate jumped from the low-to-mid 30% range to around 50%. That’s a dramatic increase and would put him on the extreme end of fly-ballers.
Fly balls by themselves aren’t bad, of course. Unless you round the bases and record an inside-the-park home run on a non-fly ball, you can’t hit a dinger unless the ball is hit in the air. So more fly balls from Robert is good for his home run projection.
However, all those fly balls are bad, real bad, for his BABIP, which then hampers his batting average. That’s because of the three major categories of batted ball types, liners, grounders, and flies, the latter falls for a hit least often. Let’s take a look at the BABIP marks of qualified hitters on the top and bottom of the FB% leaderboard in 2019.
| Segment | FB% | BABIP |
|---|---|---|
| Top 10 FB% | 47.3% | 0.271 |
| Bottom 10 FB% | 24.8% | 0.327 |
I think that tells a clear enough story.
Robert had posted fantastic BABIP marks at all his minor league stops…until he reached Triple-A. I find it fascinating that his BABIP plummeted after he arrived at the minors’ highest level. Now of course a .324 BABIP is nothing to sneeze at, but it’s no .384, which is what he posted at Double-A over a similar number of at-bats during his previous stint. I would imagine that with better defenses in MLB, if he doesn’t drastically reduce that FB%, he’s going to have a difficult time posting a BABIP mark much higher than the league average.
You might question why the projection systems are forecasting a BABIP between .318 and .339, despite all those flies likely leading to more outs in MLB. While I can’t speak for THE BAT, I’m fairly certain that the rest do not use minor league batted ball distribution data at all for their projections. Instead, the systems are solely looking at minor league BABIP to project Major League BABIP, and whatever other factors are mixed in (age, park, perhaps power and speed, but I’m not sure).
So there’s a whole lot more downside to Robert’s batting average than you may have thought. Aside from the risk of that strikeout rate spiking thanks to all the whiffs, those fly balls are going to turn into a lot of outs. Strikeouts + easy fly ball outs = low batting average.
He Figures to Hit At or Near the Bottom of the Order
Where a batter hits in the lineup is an underrated factor in fantasy baseball. There’s an enormous difference between hitting toward the bottom and toward the top, especially in the National League. The RosterResource White Sox page projects Robert to hit eighth in the lineup, ahead of only Leury Garcia, who is likely just keeping his spot warm for Nick Madrigal.
Hitting eighth isn’t as bad in the American League as it is in the National League, but it’s still not good. A hitter loses a mid-teens number of plate appearances for every spot he hits lower in the lineup. So Robert would likely lose somewhere between 80 and 100 plate appearances if he hit eighth all season versus if he led off. Those lost plate appearances will reduce all his counting stats, curtailing his fantasy value.
Given the Sox lineup, what are the odds he even moves up? He could conceivably outhit Nomar Mazara, taking over the seventh spot, which won’t do a whole lot for his fantasy value. But he is also a potentially better hitter than Tim Anderson, who could find himself dropped when his BABIP returns to normalcy. Then again, with Robert having his own OBP concerns, there is seemingly a low probability that he finds himself deserving of a move to the top of the order in the first place, regardless of what Anderson does.
***
With all of these negative factors, it’s amazing to me that with nary a Major League at-bat, Robert is so expensive on draft day, being priced higher than many other established hitters.
There will always be at least one owner in your league that chases the next superstar, and all the data, outlining of red flags, and highlighting of risks won’t do a thing to change that.
Just don’t be that one owner.
Mike Podhorzer is the founder of ProjectingX IQ, an advanced fantasy baseball analytics platform that transforms projection data and in-season performance signals into actionable intelligence. He is the 2015 Fantasy Sports Writers Association Baseball Writer of the Year and three-time Tout Wars champion. He is the author of the eBook Projecting X 2.0: How to Forecast Baseball Player Performance, which teaches you how to project players yourself. Follow Mike on X@MikePodhorzer and contact him via email.
He’s overvalued compared to established players, to be sure. But he’s valued appropriately in a long-term, keeper context. I say this with a ton of respect for your analysis and your writing, but I think you’re looking too narrowly at AAA data without context here.
Luis Robert was promoted to AAA at age 21, and turned 22 in August. He played exceedingly well at three levels in one season. He logged 550 PA’s after barely breaking 200 PA’s in 2018. His July numbers in AAA were SCORCHING with a .400 OBP and something around a .650 SLG in his first full month in AAA. Then, at 425 PA’s for the season – after around 200 PA’s in 2018 – he slowed down, which is perfectly appropriate in an age 22 season crossing three levels. His K rate at AAA went from around 18% in July to 29% in his final month-plus of the season. I’m sure the league adjusted to him, and I’m obviously picking month-ends as arbitrary endpoints and all.
I’d bet on him to have a 20-22% MLB K rate than a 25%+. Shoot, look at his K-rate from A ball to the first month of AAA: 24%, 26.4%, 23.8%, 22.1%, 17.7%. Only then, in August/September, after he crossed 425 PA’s, does the K-rate shoot up. It’s totally reasonable to say that this is “the league adjusting to him.” It’s also reasonable to cite other factors (age, fatigue, bandbox, entertainment factor, lack of meaningful platoon splits) and feel like it’s going to work out really well.
[If you really want to have fun with small sample sizes – I went back and looked for the dates of the splits. Look at his K rate from July 11 to August 3 – something around 17-18%. Then Aug. 6 (after two days off) to Aug. 22, he had 16 games in 17 days and a nasty 35.4% K rate including three sombreros and a fourth that is of the golden variety. Then he gets a day off and, now over 500 PA’s on the season, posts a 21.4% K rate in his last couple weeks. It all adds up to a 24.7% K rate over 223 PA’s in AAA, but on an interesting curve and finishing strong.]
He stole 36 bases against 150 walks, singles and doubles. And he basically stopped attempting stolen bases with about three weeks left in the minor league season, as if someone interjected with the threat of injury – he quite literally stopped running. He’s a 30/30 threat immediately in the major leagues. He goes 1st-to-3rd like a member of the 1980’s St. Louis Cardinals.
And as far as fly balls in Charlotte and the impact on BABIP… well, just look at the park factors and how the ball played there in 2019. Not just the baseball itself, but how Charlotte plays against the rest of the International League. I do think Robert crushed July homers in a bandbox park and then got homer-swing-happy in August… and tired… and I think that is 100% fixable. I also think it’s natural for a kid who comes up to AAA at age 21 and slugs something like .650 in his first month at AAA to get a little homer-swing-happy in a bandbox park. {And lest anyone look at the ball and the park factors and worry about power output, many of his home homers were of the no-doubt variety.}
Finally, having watched him play in person a number of times, I think the “plate discipline” issues are a little bit oversold right now. I think they’re based on short-term results rather than skill. I’ve seen him spit on a breaking ball to crush a fastball. It’s obvious that a lot of folks inside baseball think he has the talent to make it happen and the “intangibes” to adjust. That matches what I saw in the ballpark, except for a couple weeks in August when he tried to put on a show.
I’ve said this on other posts… we’ve seen some fun prospects come through Charlotte the last few years. Tim Anderson, Yoan Moncada, Eloy Jimenez… none of them are in the same realm of “current” (at time of MLB promotion) readiness as Luis Robert. It’s such an old cliche to say it but the sound of the ball off his bat is simply different, and the way he carries himself in the field is, too. I’m not in any way comparing him to Ronald Acuna, but I remember the reaction in the ballpark the first time we saw Acuna in person back in 2017 and realized what the hype was about with the combination of power, speed, presence and grace. Luis Robert came the closest to replicating that feeling in the ballpark over the last three years. Not close, mind you, but closest.
“He’s overvalued compared to established players, to be sure. But he’s valued appropriately in a long-term, keeper context.”
Well sure, if you change the format of the league, his value is going to change! NFBC leagues are single-season, not keeper leagues. So my analysis is only focused on this year.
D’oh. I read the whole article but missed that key qualifier. But my points still hold true. Based purely on data and projections, I would still take him over Eddie Rosario, for example, whom you mention. Maybe Ozuna, too, though it will be interesting to see how that bat plays in Atlanta.
Not sure how much instruction he received in Cuba. Instruction that is MLB commensurate. Everyone has swing and miss in their game nowadays. It’s the Latin influences of not being able to “ walk off the Island”.
You have to factor in the major league ball making most AAA stat lines a joke last year. BP’s DRC+ adjusts for park and league, similarly to wRC+ but with the caveat that minor league wRC+ isn’t park adjusted as Fangraphs doesn’t calculate or store those park factors on their website. Robert had a 128 mark at AA and 114 mark at AAA–certainly good, but not earth shatteringly good like his raw stats make him seem. These marks are also significantly below his wRC+ marks (155/136 respectively). He’s obviously incredibly talented but the concerns that the offensive performance will play below the talent are warranted in my eyes
I think there is a zero percent chance Roberts posts a 20-22% K rate this year. It’s going to be a lot higher.
Based on what? Gut feel? Data? Watching him play? All are fine, but what’s your basis?
Agree so much with all of this. But if it keeps happening, that’s fine, as I will continue to end up with more and more of Joey Gallo and Jorge Soler and laugh as I do it
Great analysis, Mike. I couldn’t agree with you more on Robert’s 2020 projection. A couple of days ago, I made the following post to another Fangraphs piece on Robert:
“I get excited about young talent as much as the next guy, and I would love Luis Robert to be the next big thing. That said, his plate discipline sucks right now and his contact rate is borderline. He’s no Juan Soto. He’s not even Eloy Jimenez at this point. Name me any guy who had consistent success with a K/BB ratio of 6+ and a 72% contact rate. I’ll wait….
So I’ll pass for now. Years of observation tell me that plate discipline cannot be taught – you either have it or you don’t. Maybe he’s the exception to the rule, but right now he looks a lot like a young Jorge Soler. Honestly, he could use a full year in AAA. It will help him in the long run. Are you listening, White Sox?”
And wow, I was instantly drowning in down-votes, for what I still think is a valid post expressing valid concerns. I later pointed out that my own projection for Robert, assuming he’s a regular all season, is something like .240/.280/.475. Yeah, he’ll run into 20-25 HR, but at what cost?
So, thanks Mike. Reading your take on Robert makes me feel better about mine. I look forward to your article revisiting Robert’s season in September or October.
Where do you get SwStk% for minor league players? I couldn’t find it on FG but I could just be shaking off the offseason rust 🙂
I want to compare Luis Robert’s plate discipline and batted ball profile to, lets say, Jo Adell and some other top prospects. I feel like I haven’t seen the same type of criticism for him but his plate discipline doesn’t look much better (although we’re talking about fairly small sample sizes here).
I tend to agree that we should settle down and refine our expectations for Robert in 2020. The MLB ball is the only caveat I can think of. If they are playing with the same regular season ball as last year…then Robert’s highly aggressive approach with tons of flyballs might just allow him to hit for more power than we expect. But we’d still be talking about a <.250 hitter if he can't improve his discipline. So you have to sacrifice something to get the power + speed and Mike is right that we shouldn't have some mega star type outlook for 2020.
Easiest way I’ve found for an individual player is to go to their player page -> click the level for a year (e.g. ‘White Sox (AAA)’ for Robert last year) -> click the batted ball tab -> look for/search for the player in question
I’m “that guy” usually, but you have me convinced. Why take him at 81 when you can have Mercado (slated to bat at top of order) at 111? I still like him a lot in keepers, but definitely more hesitant than previously.
You take Robert because if he plays 145 games he will hit 30 HR’s and steal 30 bases. He not only has exceptional power but he will be one of if not the fastest players in MLB when he makes his debut and it appears the White Sox are going to let him be aggressive on the bases.
Sure if he plays 145 game he might hit 30 hrs and steal 30sb but that is far from a guarantee and more likely his ceiling not a reasonable expectation. He is going at the point in the draft where you should be looking at his 50th percentile projections as compared to other players. Most likely he ends up somewhere around 20/20 with crap obp/ba and something like 150 rbi+runs and that’s a good season. The downside is he gets sent back to the minors. Why add that type of risk to your roster? Last year Vlad was going 2 picks ahead of Rendon. How’d that work out? Again it’s not about how good a player could be on the top end but the price you have to pay for that relative to what should be a reasonable expectation for this season
He’s under a non-arbitration contract so there’s no service time issues and he plays excellent CF defense. He might stink at the plate but the chance he gets sent down is almost nil. His defensive floor is just so high and it’s compounded by the Sox having limited options to replace him.
No offense but Vlad is a bad comp. He didn’t get called up because the Jays wanted to control his service time. That is not an issue with Robert since he signed an extension.
Luis Robert’s speed, contract status (no service time issues to consider), and I daresay the overall state of the White Sox with the moves they made this offseason (not earth-shattering, but much more competitive than the Jays last year) make Robert a very different year-1 play than Vladito. Vlad over Rendon in a single-season draft was silly. Robert over Rosario and Ozuna is not.
The package is sexy yet clearly carries flaws. Its the potential combined with opportunity that has everyone excited. Even using FanGraphs projections, Robert is being drafted pretty fairly if you adjust his AB’s up to around 600.
If Robert proves worthy of starting all year long the numbers will be there. The only way I see this pick truly busting is if Robert struggles to the point of being sent down. His power and speed mean that even with poor contact and poor discipline, the counting stats will likely be there.
Can you explain the discrepancy between the facts presented in this article and his stellar fantasy projections? Steamer, ZiPS, and all seem to love this guy, projecting at least a 20/20 season in somewhat limited playing time (140 games or less).
Already have, as I dedicated en entire paragraph on his BABIP projection. In addition, the systems have no idea that his SwStk% marks in the minors have been super high. Basically, the systems have a much more limited data set when forecasting minor league players. I use more data. Whether the systems translate the data we both use better than I, I don’t know, but I do know I’m using more data for my projection.
One thing I feel like was still unaddressed in this article is, how or why was there such a discrepancy between his swstr% and his k%. You said you believed he was likely swinging at everything but that doesn’t really seems like an explanation.
It seems like the players who succeed with this kind of swstr% need to make it count when they do connect. You pointed out that the only player to have a rate over 20% from the FanGraphs database was Josh Hamilton in 2012 as if that illustrated the futility of carrying that high a rate, but that was a phenomenal year for Hamilton.
To me Hamilton’s 141 wrc+ in 2012 and the Báez comp show that there is a path to success despite the his swstr%. You obviously have to make the contact count when it happens but it seems like Robert has the potential to be that kind of slugger.
A hitter who lets it rip then changes his approach with 2 strikes might tend to have a swinging strike rate disproportionately higher than the total strikeout rate. So might one who hardly ever takes a strike 3 looking.
I agree, those both seem like reasonable propositions. Without knowing why there is the discrepancy it seems a little premature to just assume it will lead to an insurmountable k%. It is certainly worth noting and I think the article was thought provoking.
Put another way we have a player who has a perfectly acceptable K% with a scary SwStr% but Unlike Podhorzer I’m not necessarily sold that the former will spike to meet the latter.
I fully understand all the reservations. I just wonder about looking at a 22 year old Cuban and assuming no improvement on the finer points. Again: 22 years old. Agreed he is overdrafted in redraft but in a keeper the 35/35 potential is worth a dice roll even with a mediocre OBP (esp. in 5×5). In most points formats, no thanks. But: It’s Not Linear.
People draft the upside when there’s an overall component… great analysis, Mike.
IIRC, Tatis had similar concerns when he came up. This guy has an amazing swing. I don’t own any shares currently, but at least I understand the hype better now.
Huge risk, huge reward with Luis Robert. I have not read of heard one scouting type question Robert’s talent. And the production has been there as well. We also know aging curves are changing and mega talented prospects have typically panned out immediately in the majors (Acuna, Tatis, Bichette, Albies, Eloy, just to name a few). Robert could definitely bust with this risky profile, but you can overcome a busted 6th or 7th round pick. If he goes 30/30 which he could easily do, he’s a league winner. A better pick no doubt in a format like NFBC with an overall component.
Without even getting into the math, there’s a decent chance he’s Adam Jones and I agree Baez is probably his upside. Both guys struggled their first couple of years.
They way he hit last year, I definitely think he *could* set the league on fire. I’m not sure of the percentages, but it’s in the scenario. Also what I stated above… he turns into one of those guys, but it takes awhile and he’s worthless this year.
He’s a nice pick in a dynasty league, but in a redraft, I’ll let someone take him.
Robert does have plate discipline issues. He chases a lot of breaking balls out of the zone and it took a lot of convincing from industry folks to move him this high on the list even though Robert has the surface-level traits that tend to make me irrationally excited.
Feel like you are ignoring the entire second half of that quote both the surface level traits and how many industry folks are comfortable with his skill set. If Chicago’s front office thought there was a chance he would flail at out at AAA they would not have given him 50 million when they did. They clearly thought there was value in getting him to the majors. Some guys you draft/auction for floor and some guys you draft/auction for ceiling and Robert is clearly the latter. The swing and miss issues are well understood but it seem the consensus is that he is enough of a physical freak that it creates a floor people are comfortable with and if he makes some adjustments he could be a monster.
Not saying this is correct, but it is possible that the minors were way too easy for him last year, to the point that he didn’t even care about plate discipline, because he just didn’t have to. In his mind, he knew he was going to light you up, so good luck Mr. Pitcher Guy.
This could all prove to be BS, but if true, yikes.
It’s about the potential for steals. None of the established players you mentioned have SB upside. Not quite apples to oranges, but…