Vladimir Guerrero Jr., the Hype Machine, and Draft Cost
Every season, there’s another can’t-miss top prospect. This year, that honor has been bestowed upon Vladimir Guerrero Jr., who ranked third on last year’s list. Not only does he find himself atop the 2019 mountain, but he’s the only prospect graced with a 70 (out of 80) Future Value grade, which equates to a 5.0 to 7.0 WAR and a top 10 overall player. That’s pretty incredible. Essentially, Guerrero is expected to be elite, a near surefire superstar, and the hype has predictably spread to fantasy leagues.
Before I continue, I’ll share my quick thoughts on Guerrero based solely on his stats, since I have never actually watched him play. My personal opinion is moot, though, as the overarching conclusions could be applied to any top prospect drafted in fantasy leagues.
Guerrero’s minor league performance is undoubtedly wow-worthy. He certainly appears to be a lock to be a future all-star and elite hitter. I’m most impressed by his walk and strikeout rates. He has walked at a double digit clip at nearly all his minor league stops, and has paired that with a strikeout rate that never exceeded 13.4%. Heck, in his first taste of Triple-A as a baby 19-year-old, he walked more than he struck out, and posted an absurd 7.8% strikeout rate. That’s insane enough.
Even more insane is that he posted such plate discipline marks while displaying lots of power. His ISO marks sat above .200 at every stint in 2018, while his HR/FB rate was in the high teens at Double-A and mid-20% range at Triple-A. So we have a 19-year-old who walks, doesn’t strike out, and hits for power. Yes, I completely understand the hype, and I do think it’s justified. My Pod Projections like him just fine as well.
But let’s bring this back to fantasy baseball.
As you may be aware, the 2019 Great Fantasy Baseball Invitational is happening as I type this, and probably will continue for the next couple of weeks since it’s a slow draft with a four hour pick timer. Guerrero’s ADP in the 21 leagues is 43.8 as the 43rd player and 30th hitter off the board. He was selected as early as the 31st pick and as late as the 52nd pick. This is crazy.
The inspiration for this article came via the chat room of the league I’m in, #15. In our league, he went 51st, one pick earlier than the latest pick. Immediately following his selection, the following messages were sent:
Owner 1: I was *praying* Vlad made it back to me. Sad at work right now.
Owner 2: I almost took him in the third
Owner 2: i’m PUMPED to get him in the fourth
Owner 3: Currently the 2nd latest snag of him in all the drafts
Owner 3: went 52nd in one
Owner 2: ill take it
Owner 4: I almost took him
If you weren’t able to follow, Owner 2 selected Guerrero and shared his excitement getting him in the fourth and that he even strongly considered drafting him in the third.
I questioned the selection and was responded with:
Owner 2: cause he’s a generational talent
Owner 2: might work might not
And there’s the rub. Because he’s a generational talent, cost doesn’t matter.
If you’re a stock market investor, you might realize the similarities between “investing” in players during your fantasy drafts and investing in public companies by purchasing its stock. Investing in a top prospect regardless of cost is akin to having bought a startup Internet company during the dotcom bubble in the late 1990s or the cryptocurrency bubble recently.
During each bubble, investors weren’t really investing, nor were they calculating the intrinsic value of their potential investments. Instead, they were speculating and praying that the investments they just purchased that had already run-up in value based on hopes and dreams would continue to be purchased at higher and higher prices by other investors who blindly bought without estimating the investment’s value. It worked for a while, until it didn’t. Lots of people made lots of money and then lots of people lost lots of money.
Just like stocks and cryptocurrency, everything’s got a price. If you overpay for an asset, you’re likely going to end up with a loss. You wouldn’t pay $10,000 for a share of Amazon would you (it’s currently trading for $1,600 and change)? Even if you love the company, buy everything through the website, and expect strong sustained growth over the next five years, that doesn’t justify paying any price the market asks. This same concept can be applied to fantasy drafts and auctions.
Now, let’s discuss three specific reasons why drafting Guerrero as early as he has been going is a major mistake:
This Will Be His Age 20 Season
He’s only going to be 20 years old! I just ran the FanGraphs leaderboard for age 20 seasons going back as far as their database can. There were a total of just 91 qualified seasons…since 1871. That just shows you how rare it is for a 20-year-old hitter to make it to the Big Show and play a full season.
The average wRC+ for the group sat at nearly 104, which while mediocre, is actually quite impressive considering their age. For a 20-year-old to enjoy above average offensive performance is pretty amazing.
The last hitter to play in the Majors in their age 20 season was Manny Machado back in 2013. Do you remember what he did? He posted an acceptable .325 wOBA with 14 homers over a full season. He was most certainly an elite prospect, but that was no elite performance and obviously unworthy of a top 50 pick.
Before Machado was not-human Mike Trout, who posted an are-you-kidding-me .409 wOBA, launched 30 long balls, and even stole 49 bases, because why not. Then there was Alex Rodriguez back in 1996, who posted an even more ridiculous .443 wOBA with 36 homers. These two worked out.
Since 1970, 17 20-year-olds played a full season. They averaged about a 109 wRC+, but just 12 homers. Just two hit more than 30 homers (those I named above), one more hit more than 20, and 11 failed to hit more than 10 dingers.
It’s not easy transitioning from top prospect to top 30 fantasy hitter. The odds are heavily stacked against 20-year-olds to deliver close to that type of value.
He Has Only Recorded 128 Triple-A Plate Appearances
Though I have yet to read an exhaustive study confirming this, I always felt like it’s easier for pitchers to reach the Majors and succeed with less minor league experience than hitters. In other words, pitchers are better equipped to skip Triple-A or spend minimal time there before jumping to the Bigs, without sacrificing effectiveness upon arrival. Hitters, on the other hand, need that Triple-A experience, or they risk getting eaten up by Major League pitching.
Guerrero only spent 266 plate appearances at Double-A, which isn’t out of the ordinary, but his Triple-A experience comprises just 128 plate appearances. Sure, he dominated during his time there, but doesn’t small sample size apply to minor leaguers the same way as it does Major Leaguers?
Let’s see how he performs in his second tour of duty at the level first to help determine his readiness to clobber Major League pitching.
We Don’t Know When He’ll Actually Be Called Up
The assumption is that Guerrero will be called up a couple of weeks into April, in order for the Blue Jays to delay his arbitration and free agency. This scenario means it’s almost guaranteed Guerrero buyers will have to fill his lineup spot with a replacement for at least a couple of weeks. So Guerrero will rack up at least 50 or so fewer plate appearances than an alternative full-time hitter at a similar ADP, which isn’t ideal.
But what if he isn’t called up in a couple of weeks? What if the Jays want to ensure his defense is up to par and keep him down there longer to continue working on it? What if he gets off to a slow start at the plate and doesn’t force his promotion like we all assume he will? Suddenly you’re looking at a May or even June debut. You just spent a top 50 pick on a player who is only going to play 83%, or worse, 67%, of the season. Does a top 50 pick sound like a good price to pay for such call-up date risk?
So if you pass on Guerrero at his 44 ADP as I’m advising, who can you potentially select instead? Turns out, the guy going right after him makes for a perfect alternative.
Anthony Rendon qualifies at the same position, has hit over .300 the last two seasons, and has knocked at least 20 homers and racked up between 176 and 194 runs + RBI in his four full seasons. Isn’t that like literally Guerrero’s upside this year? That’s what you’re hoping for as an owner, right? You can’t realistically expect better, can you?
So please, enjoy the Guerrero hype and get pumped to see him hit in the Majors this year when he does make his debut, but divorce your excitement about his future MLB prospects from your redraft fantasy league. While I cannot guarantee that Guerrero won’t earn his top 50 pick, or even turn you a profit, the risk/reward at that cost is poor. A top prospect, even a so-called generational talent, still has a price. Everything does.
Think you can beat a Tout Wars Champion? This is your chance! Join the “Beat Mike Podhorzer” league, an NFBC 12-team mixed format eligible for the $125,000 grand prize. The online draft takes place on Fri, Mar 8 at 9 PM EST. Full details here.
Mike Podhorzer is the founder of ProjectingX IQ, an advanced fantasy baseball analytics platform that transforms projection data and in-season performance signals into actionable intelligence. He is the 2015 Fantasy Sports Writers Association Baseball Writer of the Year and three-time Tout Wars champion. He is the author of the eBook Projecting X 2.0: How to Forecast Baseball Player Performance, which teaches you how to project players yourself. Follow Mike on X@MikePodhorzer and contact him via email.
Actually, Guerrero’s expected average performance — not his upside — matches that of Rendon, according to Steamer, The Bat and ATC. His upside is far greater than that.
…Based on small MiLB samples. Is “upside” measurable or speculative?
Yeah, this is the kicker to me. His “upside” is Troutian. His “average” is Rendon. That’s why he’s going so high in drafts. It’s remarkable that he’s going as high as he is, sure, but I’m not sure the hype is unwarranted.
If we’re giving Vlad Jr. credit for an infinite ceiling, we should acknowledge his corresponding lack of floor.
The floor for a 20 year old rookie not yet in MLB is basically zero. Rendon’s floor is still probably above average. Donaldson is a big risk with almost MVP upside and you can get him a few rounds later at the same position. Don’t get me wrong, I love Vlad Jr. (and gambling), but I slightly prefer Rendon.
Is his floor really much lower than Rendon’s? I don’t think so, I’d love to see proof.
His floor is zero until he is actually in the major leagues (minor league stats don’t count in fantasy), and there is no guarantee about when that happens. Once he’s in the league, he is still a higher risk to slump or suck for a while just because he has never played MLB and is 20, and lacks the several-year track record of consistent success of Rendon.
So, uh, evidence? Has a player who raked this hard ever delivered 0 in the MLB (given almost no one has raked this hard, I don’t think so)? Every player’s floor is literally 0, but realistically Vlad is basically a lock to deliver at least a little value in 2019 (barring injury risk that applies to every player, a risk likely much lower for Vlad).
His upside is not Troutian—he might not steal 49 bases in his career, and he certainly won’t in a season. His upside and obvious comp is Miggy.
The bigger problem is that I don’t see any reason the Blue Jays don’t keep him down past the Super 2 deadline. They aren’t good now and it won’t be worth having to pay him a ton of money a year earlier.
True, but the Braves were in a very similar situation with Acuna last year and still called him up. The backlash of keeping him down probably wouldnt be worth it for the Jays.
But the Braves were on the upswing and in a weak division. Neither of those is true for Toronto.
The situations are exactly the same, I get that…but as a Braves fan, at the beginning of last season, I didnt think we’d make the playoffs, much less win the division. I wondered if and why they would even bring him up before Super 2 back then.
The situations most certainly aren’t exactly the same.
Sorry, that was obvs a typo
The Braves were a big underdog for the division… this was not a potential playoff team, and while it was considered a weak division, the Nats were the huge huge favorites.
Every team gets backlash for keeping players down to manipulate service time/Super 2. None of them care. This will be no different.
Logically that makes sense, everyone around the Jays is thinking he’s coming up in April though, and you’d think management would be hinting that it’s actually going to be June if they were planning on June. I think April is very very likely.
If you listen to MLB on XM radio, you might have heard Ross Atkins today. I am not a professional interview critiquer, but he sure didn’t sound like a man who was in any hurry to see Vladito in the majors.
I’m so glad I drafted him last year in a keeper league for $1 and just stashed him on my bench so I can keep him for $5 this year. We don’t have an NA slot and I still won the league wooo
The collective fangraphs comments section would like to offer their sincere congratulations for your foresight and fantasy prowess. Well deserved kudos for winning your league with a bench spot taken up all year. You must be a formidable fantasy baseball opponent!!!
This is where the joy and patience of a dynasty league pays off when he was drafted 2 years ago. Now just hoping there isn’t regret in trading Arenado for Vlad to fill his spot.
Wait, why are we pretending that Soto and Acuna didnt happen next year? Soto was 19, Acuna was 20.
Your sample size of two doesn’t mean anything.
I think Tomahawk is probably remarking on this statement :
“The last hitter to play in the Majors in their age 20 season was Manny Machado back in 2013”
Not sure why Acuna didn’t appear on my list then!
Due to his injury, Acuna was not quite a qualified hitter; he came up about 15 plate appearances short of that. This did not stop him from having a great fantasy season. Soto was about 7 plate appearances short, and, of course, he was 19.
Two examples do not prove much—but along with the ones you give, they do prove that it is possible for 20-year-olds to have great seasons. Hell, most of them probably have at least good seasons because you have to be an absurdly talented player to make the majors at the age of 20.
All of that being said, your point remains valid—he’s over-priced in redraft leagues. In keeper leagues that are just starting this year, he’s a first-round pick legitimately, and in established keeper leagues, he’s just not available.
Exactly. I think it’s odd to not mention the remarkable 19 and 20 year old seasons that happened just last year, especially considering they put up wRC+ in the mid 140s. Mike used Manny Machado’s 125 wRC+ from 2013 to temper expectations for Vlad, but for some reason ignores 2018. The Manny Machado sample size of one doesn’t mean anything either.
Yep, seems quite odd. You’d think the most recent samples would receive slightly more weight vs. be ignored altogether.
Classic Pod. Clearly in the wrong, respond like an asshole anyway, never give an apology.
It doesn’t even matter. The comment misses the point. I’m not doubting Guerrero’s potential performance this year. I’m questioning the price he’s going for given his call-up date risk and the fact that he’s just 20 with barely any Triple-A experience. Naming other 20-year-olds who succeeded doesn’t mean anything.
Then what was the point of naming 20 year-olds who didn’t succeed up to expectations if 20 year-olds who did doesn’t mean anything? How can you craft an argument using some data as supporting evidence, and then when that evidence is disputed, say it doesn’t matter anyway?
I wasn’t used them as evidence of anything. I was simply naming a couple of names on the list from recent times, so we have some faces, rather than me just giving you the number on the list and the averages. In no way was I saying “Machado was mediocre, so Guerrero could be” or “A-Rod was amazing, so Guerrero could be”. That would be silly.
The only point in bringing some players up is that some are mediocre (actually, most) and some are great. We don’t know where he’ll land until he at least earns his first MLB plate appearance.
Did something structural change about baseball in 2018?
The list of busted prospects … or even good prospects who made it but were downright ordinary in their first year in MLB … is FAR longer than Juan Soto and Ronald Acuna
The list of monster prospects who debuted at 20 and busted their first year in MLB is far shorter than the list you are citing. Guerrero Jr. has statistical comps that expect he will hit right away, just like Acuna. Soto on the other hand made quite a leap last year.
I think he will do very well. Super great profile with 1:1 k:bb ratio and great power means there is very little risk.
There is one thing I don’t like though. In his minor league career he has a 50% grounder rate and last year he wasn’t much better with 47%. He still will hit 30 homers due to his contact quantity and exit velo but I wonder if his batted ball profile limits his game power a little. Of course limit is a hard word when we talk about. 300 with 30 homers but with a better profile he probably could hit 45 bombs. He is still young and can learn to lift the ball more but I wonder if this is a slight downer for now.
I’m sure nearly the same article was written about Acuna last year.
Part of the excitement of Vlad’s debut is driven by the recent success of other young 20 year olds… the recency of their success suggests it’s not unreasonable to expect production from day 1. Additionally, the projection systems support the optimism. Rendon vs. Vlad is a difficult decision to choose between, and while you’re using that as an argument against drafting Vlad, I say that the closeness of the 2 projections validates where Vlad is being drafted.
You are correct, Acuna’s and even Soto’s success last year has led to recency bias, and now suddenly fantasy owners expect all top prospects to perform at elite levels.
Is it bias if it’s supported by the projections? People aren’t drafting Carter Kieboom and expecting 2019 production. Tatis, Senzel, Rodgers… I actually think prospects are being smartly valued overall, lately, but some drafters are more risk seeking (ie. willing to embrace high ceiling/high floor players) than you.
Do the projections know when Guerrero is going to be called up? Nope. That’s a big part of the risk. Literally no one knows the date, I’m sure the Blue Jays haven’t made such a decision yet and won’t until the season begins (assuming Guerrero doesn’t make the team out of spring training).
You bet that the Blue Jays know the date in mid-April that Vlad is going to be called up. Do you think they are that incompetent? It’s the date that all superstars get called up.
The projections don’t know when he’ll be called up, and they don’t know how many homeruns he’ll hit. They don’t know what ANYONE will do, or if anyone will get injured. They can guess at both skills and playing time, though, and come up with a median projection. Nobody is projecting Vlad for 600 plate appearances, after all. His median projection is in fact better than Rendon’s even with 50 fewer plate appearances. It’s almost identical across the board except 20 points higher AVG. And since the floor with Vlad is lower, his ceiling also must be higher in order for the medians to be so close.
Could not agree more.
The comparison to Manny Machado suggests that there isn’t an adequate way to compare a group of 20-year-old MLBers, as all they often have in common is being high-talent outliers. Machado’s bat was good enough at 20 that the Os could no longer justify keeping his glove in the minors. He was coming off a 120 wRC+ AA season, 97 wRC+ in 52 MLB games. His bat tool at that age was simply not comparable to Vlad Jr’s, who doesn’t have many historical/contemporary comps. Many of the other 20 year olds are similar- Elvis Andrus, Alan Trammel, Robin Yount, Adrian Beltre all we’re promoted/kept in the majors due to the bat being good enough, while their glove was great.
I’d be interested to see how 65/70+ hit tool prospects performed, but again it’s a very limited cohort.
You’re definitely right that he might not see enough of the field to be a good pick. The Blue Jays are playing this very conservatively.
Agreed completely.
The list of comparable bats in terms of tool grades and tangible performance in the minors is very, very short.
Comparing Machado (age 19-20) to Vlad Jr. is crazy talk.
I mean if you go only by Steamer he pretty much is being properly valued, maybe even a bit undervalued. The other systems seem to think he’ll wOBA about 10 to 15 points less. I tend to side with Mike here and probably won’t own any shares in redraft, but I think this is a tougher call. A projection system that is driving the depth charts on these pages is buying in on the offensive profile.
As I responded to another comment, the projections, nor anyone else, knows when he’ll be called up, which is a big part of the risk.
I pay up for ceiling and Vlad has MONSTER ceiling. I’ll probably wait though and then try to work on a trade after the owner gets tired of waiting a couple weeks in. There is risk with Vlad just like there was risk last year with Corey Seager, Kris Bryant, Thor, Rizzo, etc…
I’m not sure how you can separate Vlad too far from Soto and Acuna in terms of draft position. There isn’t a ton more track record with those guys and Vlad has a higher avg and power ceiling.
So the author mentions only Machado, Trout and ARod as age 20 or less comps, and it is clear from the comments that the author believes Acuna and Soto are also comps. Those five players performed like so during their call-up year with the designated call-up dates:
Acuna (April 25 + missed a month) – 3.7 WAR (terrific)
Soto (May 15) – 3.7 WAR (terrific)
Machado (broke camp) – 5.0 WAR (solid)
Trout (April 28) – 10.0 WAR (incredible)
ARod (broke camp) – 9.3 WAR (incredible)
… and the author’s conclusion is that it is too risky to pick Vlad at pick 51. Ooooo-kay. Good analysis!
Throw in Correa (Promoted June 8; 432 PA, 3.4 WAR, 136 wRC+) and Stanton (Promoted June 6, 396 PA, 2.7 WAR, 118 WRC+) as downcase scenarios, and now its really a party.
I think people forget Vlad will probably be a better real life hitter than fantasy player. He can hit 0.300 and 20-25 home runs but he won’t steal any bases, he’s on a bad team and has had some injuries in the past. I don’t see much difference between him and Justin Turner who goes 70 picks later. Vlad probably has a little more power but Turner is on a better team and will make that up in Runs & RBI’s.
Matt Wieters is a close cautionary tale to selecting Guerrero Jr. so early. Anybody who was following Baseball Prospectus in 2009 will remember him as the player who broke PECOTA, the system that essentially projected him to be the league MVP as a rookie and to follow a HOF career path. The hype machine surrounding Wieters went through the roof around the time leagues were drafting, and I think he went something like 25th overall in mine.
Acuna and Trout are terrible comps b/c even though they are young, they derive a significant amount of their value from SBs which Vlad just won’t give you. Upside comps for him would be Soto in 2018 or Miggy in his 2nd year. If we assume he plays 140 games this season and take those seasons as baselines and prorate them you get something around 28hrs, 170 R+RBIs, and .300 avg. His surrounding lineup just isn’t very good and he’s guaranteed to miss a few games b/c he’s starting in the minors. Throw in the lack of SBs and his upside is very limited. He’s also a rookie with a higher than average bust rate for his position. So why would I take him over someone like Rendon who 1) is guaranteed to start the season in the majors 2) has proven he can handle major league pitching and put up the stat line that is being projected and 3) has some upside to exceed it. In a redraft league, I’m sure Vlad will be good but there is just no value to be had from drafting him at this price
As much as I love prospects, and “uber” ones like Vladitio- I agree, the fact he’s being treated as a 2nd rounder or even a 1st is insane. I got him in 4th and 5th rounds so far. It’s the ‘shiny new toy’ syndrome, I believe….
for my fantasy teams, I ensured my teams so far and have a scrub named Machado at 3b and Asdrubal Cabrera.
I actually agree with Mike here but man does he come off like an arrogant prick.
Seems to be trending that way after listening to him on podcasts. Which is a shame, because he’s a smart guy that doesn’t need to fall into that shtick to be worth reading or listening to.