Fantasy Sports Investments: A Warning

The following is a distillation of a post I ran and later withdrew the other day.

If you missed it, I combined two broad topics which I explored through the lens of an ongoing debate about the National Fantasy Baseball Championship (NFBC). My focus on NFBC was poorly received with some labeling it a “hit piece.” That was not my intent. In fact, I twice referred to the site as the “gold standard” for competitive fantasy baseball. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the format and everybody involved. Here is a full apology/explanation I posted to Twitter.

The easy thing to do would be to walk away from this topic, but I believe at least half of my message is important enough to revisit. And so, let’s talk about the money.

Maybe Not An “Investment”

As part of the Twitter debate about NFBC, some industry colleagues mentioned the high costs ($1,700 per Main Event entry) could be viewed as an investment by anybody sufficiently skilled. If you have the talent, you’re likely to make money over the long term. I have a few problems with this gambling-as-investment thesis.

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First, let’s be clear about something. This rationale isn’t limited to NFBC. In fact, it’s far more pervasive and dangerous in DFS, sports betting, and poker. In NFBC, there’s almost an unofficial cap to the amount you can spend per season.

There are rapidly diminishing returns to making multiple Main Event entries. The more teams you have, the harder it is to run FAAB every week. The less efficient your FAAB, the less likely you are to win. It’s challenging to spend more than around $10,000 per sports season (they also have a football championship). You can drop $10,000 or more every day in DFS. I saw a screenshot just yesterday of somebody who entered $300,000 of football lineups.

The real problem is this conditional statement about sufficient skill. It’s extremely hard to self-assess fantasy baseball talent. So much of it is intangible. Are you good? Probably. How do you compare to other good players? Uh… who knows?

The best method – via the actual results – can be costly and misleading. An early positive outcome could be beginner’s luck. Personally, I’d need to lose five or six seasons – a sum of around $10,000 on NFBC – before I was convinced that maybe I’m not actually good enough to compete.

This observation that perceived skill makes gambling an investment can be ruinous. I’ve witnessed it first hand. I’ve known people to go broke playing DFS. I had friends go into crippling debt playing poker. The kind of debt where scowling bruisers show up on your doorstep. They were all sold the same story – you can get rich quick playing this game. You have the right stuff.

Some Simple Math

Beyond those prone to gambling addiction and poor self-assessment, many people miss a crucial step when calculating their chances to make money playing fantasy sports. Let’s say a $100 contest of 100 people pays the top 15 percent (15) of participants. Let’s say everybody has a roughly equal chance to win. You, with all your latent skill, have a 20 percent chance. We’ll keep the math simple by using averages. In actuality, nearly all of these contests are scaled – first place nets a lot of cash, 15th place wins a consolation prize.

The average winner gets $667, right? The average participant has around a 15 percent chance to win (expected value of $100), and you have a 20 percent chance (expected value of $133). So you plan to make an average of $33 per entry over the long term. Maybe you won’t win today, but everything will balance in time.

Not so fast! The site takes a rake to cover their operating expenses which include software, personnel, advertising, legal fees, and state-by-state fees. The rake is usually over 10 percent of the pie. On DraftKings, it’s often above 16 percent. So instead of a $10,000 prize pool, we now have a $9,000 prize split 15 ways. The average winner gets $600 (EV $90). Your extra talented expected value is $120. Still a profit!

If you win, you have to pay taxes. Depending on the size of your win, this could range from around 10 to 30 percent of the prize. Operationally, the prize pool looks more like $7,500. You’re paying in money which was already taxed, and you’re getting back money that needs to be taxed again. An average player now has an expected value of $75. You are now break even with an expected value of $100. Your expected growth over time is $0. You might still hit the lottery so to speak. In terms of investments, this is terrible.

To come out ahead long term, you have to be much better than the average participant. In our example above, you’re 33 percent better than average and it’s not enough. Is that likely to be true in a highly skilled game like NFBC? It’s possible. These professional-quality players do exist. Some participants are among the winners every year. But you need to be honest with yourself, how likely is it that you are one of these elite-of-the-elite fantasy players? And, given the preexistence of such players, the math is even muddier.

And so my point is simple. If you’re going to start playing NFBC, DFS, sports betting, or any other form of gambling, go into it with your eyes open. Be open to the idea that, maybe, you aren’t the prophesied savant king of whatever game it is you’re playing. Most importantly, google the term “bankroll management.” Pick the method best tailored to you and stick to it.





You can follow me on twitter @BaseballATeam

55 Comments
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JD, Too
6 years ago

Good post.

nightfire007Member since 2020
6 years ago

I appreciate this! You almost never see this type of analysis from fantasy sports promoters, and it’s valuable to have out there. A 133 wRC+ major leaguer is an elite hitter! Not too many of those around.

rnegliaMember since 2019
6 years ago

High-stakes gambling stresses me out. #UncutGems

TwinscribeMember since 2019
6 years ago

Wisdom, truly

yahmule
6 years ago

Lots of good stuff here. Self assessing can be treacherous. After strong seasons from 2011-13, I was brimming with confidence in 2014, went big and nearly got skunked. I’ve yet to approach my winning percentage from that good three year run in any individual season since then.

montrealMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  yahmule

True, but I know who you are, and you are very good. Always a threat to have another big year. And you enjoy it. Good luck.

Mike DMember since 2016
6 years ago
Reply to  montreal

Jim is okay 😉

Eric
6 years ago

The best post I’ve seen on this site in a long time. Well said.

Fatty
6 years ago

Lots of fair points but I think you are still missing the main points:

1) People play NFBC for the level of competition. They know it’s hard to win. That’s the main draw.

2) If you win money in a home league you are still SUPPOSED to pay taxes. Kind of a red herring but this should be pointed out in fairness.

3) They have lower price point entries ($50) to start or stay at.

4) The reason for the high rake is because these guys run the site the right way( licensing etc.) and have such a high level of integrity that you don’t worry about being cheated.

Gambling always needs to be done responsibly. There is heightened risk in that you can compulsively sign up for leagues with draft addictions etc. That’s probably the biggest issue/warning that needs to be said.

Honestly though this whole overly-paternalistic post reeks of the same unrighteous indignation of your Twitter posts. You don’t like it and don’t want to play it? Fine. Otherwise I think you need to let it go and realize the horrible optics of this to this to fantasy baseball community.

Fatty
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad Johnson

You got a lot of heat from those posts and they came across as weirdly condescending and sanctimonious particularly in light of the fact you’ve never actually played on the site you were criticizing. Or put more simply the fact that you got such heat kind of proves that the optics were bad.

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

Optics were awful. NFBC players all use Fangraphs. Fangraphs writers enjoy/play the NFBC. A few well respected industry folks didn’t agree with him as well and spoke up. Many comments in the original piece were completely false. You don’t play enough to make comments that strong and and it was an attack on the NFBC. You don’t like the NFBC and won’t play there. We get it. Keep that to yourself. Not your diehard fantasy baseball audience.

softyelectricMember since 2019
6 years ago

“A few well respected industry folks didn’t agree with him”

Setting aside that neither the earlier nor this post is even in the realm of an “attack on the NFBC” –

Since when did some people disagreeing with a respectfully written opinion become a reason to not publish something?

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  softyelectric

Fellow employees disagreed with him and called it a “hit piece”. If you didn’t read/see the first article you aren’t understanding my point. He deleted that for a reason

PatrickMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

I’m confused – if you are aware of the odds, if you are aware of the competition and that is why you do it – why are you bothered about a post like this? I think it would have the affect of scaring away those who are not as good and thus increase the competition you face which should make it even better from your perspective right?

Fatty
6 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

It implicitly takes a unfair shot/attack at a business that stands out as more reputable and respected than nearly all other DFS/Season long higher stakes sites. Seems ironic to me.

He could very easily have made his points about gambling / risks etc. without singling out NFBC. He chose to, highlighted the Rake as too high, and repeated it here.

AphexGwynn
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

Any reputable business should welcome criticism with open arms, unfair or not.

I don’t see bad optics here, I see a twitter mob ratio-ing an opinion they perceive as a personal attack.

cavebirdMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

NFBC was the obvious one to mention because (A) they are the most famous of the season-long places and (B) they have the highest entry fee leagues (whether or not they have lower ones) that are commonly known to the majority of fantasy baseball players. I am not sure why people went so nuts about it; it was his best post in ages. 😉

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  cavebird

Did you read the first post he deleted? or his tweets? It was a hit job and fellow employees at Fangraphs have agreed on that. His lack of experience in the NFBC made it worse. I won’t write an article dissing Draftkings if i don’t play daily.

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

He called their game expensive. (yet they have $50 contests and up) . He brought up the rake yet he has no idea what a business costs to run and they fees they incur. He made wise ass comments about just 12 people making $ at the NFBC. Stick with the apology next time and no need for Part 2 PSA bringing up some of the same nonsense Mr. DFS expert.

renaldo44Member since 2020
6 years ago

All he does is state what the rake is, I don’t see a judgement that it’s too high, only that it should be taken into consideration when calculating the return on investment. An accurate analysis is what I would expect on this highly analytic website. It also reads more that he’s talking about the DFS rakes.

rainmaker42
6 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

lol Patrick, great first sentence!

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

Well said. 100% . His Twitter posts were even worse than the original NFBC hit job article. He said congrats to the 12 people making money playing the NFBC. Meanwhile he’s never played the NFBC yet he’s writing hit jobs and doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

JD, Too
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

People who play NFBC apparently think that everyone else should care about NFBC as much as they do and they get really butthurt when we don’t.

Seriously, you don’t have to wonder who plays NFBC because they will podcast, write, and tweet about it constantly.

No one cares about your NFBC team and quit trying to convince us that we should.

montrealMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  JD, Too

Not true JD. People are defending the NFBC because it is indeed the top organization of it’s type. No one is trying to tell you who is on their team. Just sticking up for the # 1 organization, and ya, I do know. I’ve been in several and the NFBC is easily the best.

JD, Too
6 years ago
Reply to  montreal

Ah, but they do tell us. Like I said, they tell us their teams in written, pod, and tweet forms. They tell us about the drafts and the trades and the FAAB wars. They tell us not because they think we care or they want us to care, but they tell us because they NEED us to care. And we don’t. We really don’t. We just want them to talk about the research they’re doing because we don’t have time to do it ourselves.
It might be the greatest organization in the history of the world. It might be filled with the smartest players in the world. But they all forget the undisputed #1 rule in all of fantasy sports. The rule that has no exception and will never be proven wrong. The rule?
No one really cares about your fantasy team or your fantasy league or your fantasy trade, so just keep it to yourself.

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  JD, Too

who doesn’t talk about their fantasy team in general? You must be following a lot of industry guys and most play in the NFBC. PS- noi trades in NFBC you’re stretching it a little here

JD, Too
6 years ago

lulz

cavebirdMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  montreal

What makes it the best? And are there other organizations like it?

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  cavebird

Yes and many have gone belly up and screwed over their winners. NFBC exudes trust first and foremost. Track record is impeccable

softyelectricMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  montreal

Hardly anyone’s “defending” it; they’re attacking Brad for writing the article. Respectful countering of different opinions, or even rebuttals on facts – great. Massive whining about the very existence of the article – yikes.

Serbian to Vietnamese to French is back
6 years ago
Reply to  Fatty

RPuno fair points, but I don’t think you have major points yet:

1) NFBC players for competitive level. They know it’s hard to beat. This is a major feat.

2) If you win money in your home league, you still have to pay taxes. Like red herring, but considered fair.

3) There are few things that cost ($ 50) to get started or stay.

4) The reason for the great program, the proper launch of the website (license, etc.) and a high degree of integrity that you do not care about being duped.

Games must always be played responsibly. The increased risk is that you may be charged for a contagious tournament, etc. This may be the biggest question / warning to say.

Although this is a very patient place to hide the wrongdoing and Twitter messages. Don’t like and don’t want to play? If not, I think you should let it go and convey this horrific look at this fantasy to the baseball community.

O'KieboomerMember since 2021
6 years ago

Didn’t see the original but if this was the gist I see no problem. But gamblers aren’t known as the most calm, cool, or collected bunch…

TheTinDoorMember since 2019
6 years ago

This may be the first time I’ve ever said this… good post, Brad.

cards737
6 years ago

Your articles are hilariously horrific. When will you actually post something with any relevancy for the fantasy community and not pulling random and illogical topics out of your hat?

cards737
6 years ago

Stop posting for 7 year olds who’ve never played fantasy baseball. You’re a FG “writer”. Act like it.

ResumeManMember since 2016
6 years ago

So I didn’t see the original article and I really don’t know anything about NFBC. But I do know something about DFS and other gambling options, and most of what you say is spot-on.

I do find it curious though that a post that was about the risks and delusions associated with gambling, in which even the article keeps coming back to DFS, is instead framed as a post about regular fantasy BB, which the article even notes is somewhat capped in potential losses.

Why not frame the concerns and arguments in an article about DFS and/or sports betting??

Michael DeYoungMember since 2019
6 years ago

Brad, You have twice now stated your opinion clearly and respectfully. It’s disappointing you felt you had to edit your first piece.

shakeappealMember since 2020
6 years ago

I didn’t read the original piece, so I can’t speak to the debate that broke out.

I will say *this piece* is eminently fair and seems directed at the self-deceiving gambler in all of us, not the NFBC. *Of course* there are benefits to participating in the NFBC that extend far beyond the potential cash rewards. If I put that money down to play, I’d consider it a ticket to a high-stakes, high-skill experience. But humans frequently do themselves and their loved ones extreme harm through unrealistic self-assessment of their gambling “talent,” and it’s refreshing to see a FanGraphs piece address that.

montrealMember since 2022
6 years ago

I play in the NFBC. I think what you are missing Brad, is the enjoyment members get from it. It is a tight community. A lot of members know each other and love the chance to joke and compare their thoughts with each other. The live events in Vegas can’t be beat. Guys love them. They don’t “just” throw in their money. They hang out with, drink Beer with, share their opinions with, go out socially with each other. So if Joe Smith loses $2,000 on the NFBC he likely got more than $2,000 worth of fun and excitement. That would mean he is a winner.

I do understand your point of not over evaluating your skills and losing serious money. But for most, the “loss” is worth it. And we all enjoy dreaming of winning big. Even the on line leagues have a lot of fun banter since most guys know each other. Some guys end up being life friends over their meeting with NFBC players. I’m not raking you over the coals….just pointing out it is profitable in the form of fun and of life experiences. You are correct that it is hard to be a regular winner. But you are missing the rewards of playing in the NFBC.

wschampionredsox04Member since 2021
6 years ago
Reply to  Brad Johnson

I’ve been playing NFBC well over 10+ years and have never heard someone mention NFBC and “Investing”. We play for fun. We play with awesome competitors. And some of us are actually profitable. Not sure why you are so into this “investing” idea for fantasy baseball season long. We have 401K’s for investing and for fun we play in the NFBC.

Mule
6 years ago

The article wasn’t for people already in the NFBC. It was for people who were considering entering the NFBC with the intention of making a profit. Then it laid out the low odds of that happening. Then people threw a fit for some reason as if there aren’t real things in the world to be upset about right now. And here we are dicking around over nothing.

AphexGwynn
6 years ago
Reply to  montreal

This is the part I don’t get. No one is criticizing the fun, community, or overall bliss experienced in NFBC. No one is saying NFBC is the worst organization out there.

I think the fun I have in my 15 year old 12 team league is fun for the same reasons you’re stating NFBC is fun. Only I pay 100 dollars to cut it up online and in person.

It doesn’t make my experience better, only less reliant on the ole bank account.

cavebirdMember since 2018
6 years ago

I agree completely with the gist of this article. It is something important to remember if you don’t live in one of those states that won’t let you play any of these things, lol.

That being said, I have one clarification to offer here. If you itemize deductions, you can deduct any gambling losses or entry fees, etc., for DFS, fantasy, etc., so the tax hit should not be anything that can take winnings down to, or below, zero. After the last tax reform, however, it is rarer for it to make sense to itemize deductions, so your example is likely accurate in most cases (the exception would probably be profession gamblers, etc.).

rainmaker42
6 years ago

Wow, I didn’t read the original but considering the replies to this post, some people are apparently very protective/sensitive of the NFBC. Thanks for all the laughs to those who are acting like this article is somehow condemning people who play fantasy for fun.

renaldo44Member since 2020
6 years ago

It occurred to me that some of the less reasonable NFBC defenders may be trying to protect their own investment, which is much more solid the more suckers join. Imagine Brad standing next to a high stakes poker table and preventing the poor suckers from sitting down – that may seem like a good thing to most of us, but the pros at the table would be pretty upset.

JRMayneMember since 2016
6 years ago

Caveats: The NFBC is not for me, I’m a DFS hobbyist, and I am – over a lifetime – a successful gambler on sports futures and poker. I am no James Holzhauer, though.

Point I agree with: The sale of these products as easy and winnable from your barstool are awful. I admit to playing daily fantasy football as an unqualified rube, and… OK, bad example, I got super lucky one week this year and am up. But that is not the way to bet. I’m not good enough to beat the very serious people over time, and am doomed to lose money.

Point I think is missed: People who hit early in the process often believe it’s not luck. It might be. Are you using sophisticated modeling? What do you know? You have to track results in poker, sports longshots, and DFS over a surprisingly long time to determine if you are good.

Point that is wrong: You’ve miscalculated the take on taxes, or I’ve misread it. First off, there’s the reality as shown by a conversation between my friend and I:

Friend: Oh, good job! Plus that’s under the reporting threshhold, so you don’t have to pay taxes.
Me: I always pay taxes on winnings.
Friend: Wait, what?
Me: Have you met me?
Friend: Oh, right.

But taxes aren’t on the entire amount; they are on net winnings. If I bet $4K last year and took in $6.5K, the taxes aren’t on the higher number, but on the $2.5K difference. In a single year, if you beat the vig, you beat the game.

Zaphod Beeblebrox point: I have a friend who said he’d end up at about +70% of his money in a yearly best ball tournament, and he bought a *lot* of teams. He is actually better than almost everyone else. Somebody is good enough to win. But as you note, the group of people who think they are that good is way larger than those who are. If you’ve never quit betting on something because you weren’t as good as the house/other guy/group, you might want to rethink it.