Challenge #2 Follow-Up: BABIP and Weak Contact

The second of last week’s challenges asked you to prove that a low BABIP means that the pitcher induced weak contact. I’m tired of reading that Pitcher X has a .220 BABIP and so that means he has “kept hitters off-balance”, “induced weak contact” or that “hitters have a difficult time squaring him up”. The opposite is equally as annoying, reading that Pitcher Y, sporting a .330 BABIP, is “hittable”. With no evidence ever presented to support such a conclusion aside from the BABIP itself (and perhaps, if we’re lucky, a mention of the batted ball distribution allowed), the claims are meaningless.

All of those descriptions may very well be true, but we still have no real proof of it for any specific pitcher, so it’s all just conjecture. That has no place in fantasy analysis when these statements are made as if they were facts. It’s misleading to the reader and a real disservice.

I’ll climb down from my high horse now and get to discussing the comments.

The very first comment summarized my thoughts so perfectly.

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Right, this one is even harder… because even if you could show that a pitcher is getting weaker contact, you then have to prove he is actually INDUCING that weaker contact. This seems to fluctuate enough that you have to lean to the hitter on that one.

Insofar as IFFB are weak contact, I think that’s as far as you can go.

BINGO! From listening to broadcasters, it seems as if pitchers are credited with the ultimate batted ball result far more often than they should be. There are exceptions of course where the commentator will acknowledge a good pitch was made, but the batter just hit it. But that’s rare. Is it a human psychology thing that we think the pitcher is more in control because he’s the one actually throwing the ball, whereas the hitter is simply reacting?

Brad Johnson says:

IMO, this is getting awfully close to asking us to prove a negative. We know what we know about batted ball contact and that obviously plays a big part – esp. IFFBs. Without access to a large set of HITf/x data, I’m not sure we can do what you ask.

Yup, that’s the point. If it cannot be proven, then I don’t think it’s fair to label pitchers as hittable or possessing the skill to induce weak contact.

dl80 says:

Using standard deviations, can’t we figure out that a certain number or percentage of pitchers are likely to have an abnormally low (at least 1 SD) BABIP for 1, 2, 3, even 4 years in a row, even just if BABIP is absolutely all luck-based? We have no way to predict which pitcher it will be, but it’s possible someone like Matt Cain or Kyle Lohse are just outliers because, statistically speaking, there has to be an outlier. It just happens to be them.

BINGO again! I can’t remember where I read it, perhaps Tom Tango’s The Book Blog, but it’s an important reminder. Somebody is going to have a low or inflated BABIP several years in a row due to just randomness. It’s kind of like the sports gambling best bets scam. The advice site will tell 1,000 customers their Best Best is the Yankees and the other 1,000 the Red Sox, when the teams are facing each other. Half of those customers will be happy and pay for another Best Bet. They repeat, this time with 500 happy and paying up. Over and over again it continues until the pool of repeat customers dwindles. But that pool just won many games in a row and believes the advice site is brilliant. They had no idea what scam they just pulled.

What about pitchers who throw a fastball/sinker/cutter that tails away from the plate? If a righthanded pitcher throws a fastball/sinker/whatever that has glove side run, it will obviously tail away from righties. If this pitcher tends to throw on (and just off) the outer half of the plate a lot, that pitch may be really hard for righties to square up correctly. Obviously, that would be the opposite of lefties, and presumably righties could eventually wait on that pitch and still hit it. But I wonder if a pitch tailing off and away is harder to get good contact (and presumably more likely to have a lower BABIP)?

Does a large differential between a fastball and breaking ball and/or changeup make a difference? Do guys with 10 mph between fastball and breaking ball, and another 10 between breaking ball and changeup, tend to have lower BABIP? Do guys with a smaller difference have a higher BABIP?

The first idea is is a pitch movement and location theory. With the data we have available now, could this even be researched? I have no idea. But it’s something to consider. The next idea is also intriguing. I know Eno has found that a smaller differential between fastball and changeup produces more grounders, while a larger differential induces swings and misses. I wonder if the differential also affects BABIP.

Does pitcher height matter at all? What about sidearmers or three-quarters guys? What about guys like Carter Capps and his funky motion?

I’m not sure about height, but I would say a funky motion should be proven to reduce BABIP. It’s lumped into the deception group and for as long as hitters are deceived, that would be a logical effect. I don’t know if it has ever been studied in-depth though.

Ruki Motomiya says:

My first intuition was high fstrike% + zone % would lead to some lower BABIPs, but when I looked at it, a different pattern seemed to emerge, which is that a high fstrike% with a lower zone %(50% or so) seemed to lead to lower BABIPs.

Buried in the comments is a quick study I performed to determine if F-Strike% or Zone% correlated at all with BABIP. I found:

I quickly ran correlations and a regression using 754 qualified starter seasons from 2006-2014. Correlation of Zone% with BABIP and F-Strike% with BABIP. Both were tiny, Zone% at .06 and F-Strike% at .03. It’s both a positive correlation meaning more strikes equals higher BABIP, but obviously the effect is minuscule.

Combining the two, R-squared is just .005, so nothing to see here.

Capt. Clutch says:

How can you possibly expect to prove that a pitcher induces weak contact without hit/fx data? The closest one can come right now is FB%, GB%, LD%, IFFB%. The data available to the public now cannot be used to definitively prove that some pitchers run low BABIPs because of weak contact, because we can’t even sufficiently measure the quality of said contact.

BAM! There it is again.

Turning back to Zachary Smith, who emailed me after the first challenge, we learn this:

I’ve done massive amounts of research on the topic of pitchers and BABIP, and barring some new data come to light, it turns out pitchers can’t control anything about their BABIP except, you guessed it, pop ups. I’ve sorted pitchers into groups based on skills, talent level, & in addition to broad stroke analysis of “pitchers” generally and the results stand firm. No matter how nasty a guy’s stuff, one’s BABIP is forever approaching .295 (or whatever the average MLB hitter’s talent level is in a given year). The ability to generate pop ups is the lone skill in a pitcher’s arsenal for the obvious reason that pop ups are almost always automatic outs. I used true IFFB% again (FB% * IFFB%) and one’s BABIP is most accurately predicted in the last 3 years by the following formula:

=0.3086*(2.17828^(-1.742*TRUE IFFB%)

As for why a pitcher has no control over his BABIP, the reasons are three-fold. Firstly, hitters largely control the moment of contact (speed, trajectory, and proximity of the bat to the ideal location of contact with the ball). Secondly, the talent level at the major league level is, despite large disparities in results, almost uniform. Thirdly, getting the bat on the ball is what largely determines the outcome of an at bat: swings and misses are the key skill a pitcher controls since two round objects approaching each other at two hundred miles an hour are largely outside of anyone’s control considering the fine motor skill and vision required to make the adjustment of millimeters in the contact zone that leads to the difference between a pop up and a home run is beyond the ability of human perception and action.

This is great stuff. But, surprising. Given the huge disparity in BABIP between fly balls and ground balls, I would have thought the rest of a pitcher’s batted ball distribution would also matter. Zachary found that this wasn’t the case. I don’t know the entire details of his research, so perhaps he didn’t cover every base. And he certainly hasn’t looked at data not available that could shine more light on this topic.

I thought that such things as location, changing offerings, &c. should affect BABIP, but no matter how hard I looked I couldn’t find anything of real note. Sure I found some statistically significant correlations, but they were extremely large sample size, low R-squared, small deviation results so they weren’t worth factoring into my heuristic. I feel like there probably is meat left on the bone for BABIP research with pitchers, but it will have to be extremely specific driven by rigorous categorization and without broadly applicable concepts that apply to all pitchers, instead with results that apply to pitchers with only a certain pitch mix, quality of offering, location inside/outside early in counts or when they need to pitch a strike.

That’s the next frontier. Looking at individual pitches, location, etc. But it’s so hard to isolate all the various things worth testing because the effectiveness of a pitch is influenced by previous pitches.

Zachary went one step further:

So, I took all starting pitchers with 150 or more innings last year who threw curveballs and analyzed that data set. A small data set, surely, but I was hoping the early returns would allow me to get a direction for multi-year analysis. Annnndddd, success. Here are the results:

Curveball Usage BABIP   vCurveball BABIP   X-movement BABIP   Y-movement BABIP
<8% 0.293   Top 50% 0.294   Top 50% 0.293   Top 50% 0.290
<12% 0.294   Top 40% 0.296   Top 40% 0.296   Top 40% 0.290
<16% 0.292   Top 30% 0.294   Top 30% 0.296   Top 30% 0.283
<20% 0.291   Top 20% 0.294   Top 20% 0.298   Top 20% 0.280
<24% 0.290   Top 10% 0.295   Top 10% 0.296   Top 10% 0.280
Bottom 20% 0.286   Bottom 20% 0.291   Bottom 20% 0.294      
Bottom 10% 0.289   Bottom 10% 0.284   Bottom 10% 0.296      

The data speaks for itself, but generally the less horizontal movement and the greater the vertical movement on one’s curveball, the lower one’s BABIP. That said, such effects only take place at the extreme’s of the given skill sets which is why most linear regression (without categorization) will not reveal such underlying forces. As for usage it appears that pitchers use their curveballs to varying degrees regardless of how good those curveballs are at managing contact; this is likely because of how many swings and whiffs said pitch generates, or the other pitches a pitcher has at his disposal and their relative strength or weakness. And finally, there appears to be a “best velocity” for the curveball—I believe this is likely relative to the velocity of one’s primary pitch (four-seamer, two-seamer, sinker), a goldilocks zone where the pitch is slow enough to maximize movement and differentiate itself from the primary pitch, but fast enough so that the hitter cannot pick up on the pitch easily/quickly and lay off it or adjust.

Somebody hire this man to do more research!





Mike Podhorzer is the founder of ProjectingX IQ, an advanced fantasy baseball analytics platform that transforms projection data and in-season performance signals into actionable intelligence. He is the 2015 Fantasy Sports Writers Association Baseball Writer of the Year and three-time Tout Wars champion. He is the author of the eBook Projecting X 2.0: How to Forecast Baseball Player Performance, which teaches you how to project players yourself. Follow Mike on X@MikePodhorzer and contact him via email.

15 Comments
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Kris Gardham
11 years ago

I mentioned this in the other post, but there are a couple small correlations (like five percent r2) between speed, movement and BABIP.

For some reason, I thought speed difference from FA->CH came across with the biggest correlation, with like .15-.25, or like 5%.

I also, for some reason, thought X-movement mattered a lot more than y-movement. I didn’t use buckets, though.

Mike, it takes 20 minutes to dump the whole she-bang into a custom report and export it to excel, and run the correlations. It takes another 20 to calculate speed difference by subtracting pitch a from pitch b (or whatever)

Using custom reports isn’t as great as querying pfx, but it does the trick.

Nate
11 years ago

So what may be important that Zach is getting at in his final analysis is that their might be effects that are non-linear. Doing specialized categorizations is implicitly trying to deal with non-linearities in the data. While doing Pearson correlations is assuming that the effects are linear. The really neat thing about Zach’s work is that it suggests what is “intuitively” true watching games: that there are handful of really good pitchers and a bunch of OK ones. This should be reflected in non-linear effects at the tails of these BABIP vs. skills plots. Unfortunately non-linear analyses are difficult, so detailed categorization may be the best bet.

tz
11 years ago
Reply to  Nate

I’d love to see Zach’s analysis repeated over other seasons to see if he gets similar results. For just one season there’s an outside chance that other “lurking” variables could be causing the difference in BABIP (which at .010 is just 1% of balls in play). But his explanation makes intuitive sense, and if I had to bet on it I would expect to see similar results for the majority of past seasons.

evo34Member since 2023
11 years ago
Reply to  Nate

That’s the key to any baseball analysis, really: investigate, do not dismiss outliers. It’s amazing how much ink has been spilled proclaiming “there is no relationship between x and y,” when in fact all that should have been said is that there is no neat, linear formula that relates these two types of data.

tz
11 years ago

Thanks for the follow-up on the comments Mike, this was a great discussion.

Back to dl80’s comment on the luck component, MGL had a great analysis and follow-up on Tango’s website where he looked at how much the defensive support varied for different pitchers on the same team in the same season (using his UZR). There’s a bunch of great tidbits in there but his key conclusions are:

– One team’s defense can produce wildly different levels of help/harm to different pitchers on the same team

– Much of the variability in BABIP actually comes from fluctuations in defensive support (vs. pure “luck”)

In short, Lohse might be riding a four-year streak of above-average defensive support relative to the other pitchers on his team.

Here’s a link to MGL’s analysis:

http://tangotiger.com/index.php/site/comments/verlander-and-scherzer-trade-luck

Saberfeed
11 years ago

Has anyone done a study to determine how much babip is related to shifting, and the failures of hitters to beat shifts? I would like to know how much of a correlation babip plays with players who spray the ball less and hit it in the same spots. I’m assuming there is a direct ratio with a larger sample size.

fothead
11 years ago

“Is it a human psychology thing that we think the pitcher is more in control because he’s the one actually throwing the ball, whereas the hitter is simply reacting?”

Or maybe it’s because that’s whats happening. Anyone who’s watched baseball for any length of time can clearly see the pitcher initiates the encounter. Its not subject to any degree of perception. If the pitcher doesn’t throw, nothing begins.

Ill also say that while this is an interesting subject to explore, there’s no reason to be a pompous dick about it. Especially when you’re probably wrong, though I would be unable to prove that to most people’s satisfaction. But your first two paragraphs were straight up dickish.

I thought sabrmetrics were supposed to have evolved, where it’s now accepted certain dynamics of the game may be better captured at times through direct observation and interpretation of THAT information in conjunction with statistical analysis and study (scouting).

Whether or not you personally believe this is your choice. But you have no clear cut answers here other than to disparage others observations. Those who may actually believe what they have been watching, or playing for decades. Dont you think you should adopt a less authoritative tone?

Kris Gardham
11 years ago
Reply to  fothead

I can see why you’re getting downvotes, but you do have a point. There have been some dickish replies in both the articles and the comments.

With regards to your other points, and the pitcher initiating the event, the one thing that can’t be over stated is that we’re only talking about balls in play. I can see how Mike’s words aren’t crystal clear on this. No one is disputing that the pitcher initiates the event of every pitch. The pitcher has control over the *outcome* of the pitch a lot of the time.

However, as soon as the ball is put into play, that is a different story. We’re not neglecting the pitcher’s influence, we’re simply stating that in the subset of examples where the ball is put in play, it’s more game theory than it is the pitcher’s influence.

Basically, let’s say Kluber throws his curveball. It’s a great pitch. Kluber has a lot of control over the outcome. A lot of batters are going to absolutely miss this pitch and a lot of that we can attribute to Kluber having a wicked curveball. Sometimes it’ll go in for a ball, sometimes it’ll go in for a strike. Again, Kluber has influence over this. Maybe it’s fouled it off, again Kluber probably has some influence. Maybe it goes for a HR, and yanno what, maybe that was Kluber’s fault. What we’re saying, however, is that when the batter makes contact with this pitch and puts it into play, Kluber has very little influence on the event. Maybe he threw an absolutely perfect curveball down in the zone and it just got hammered because the batter was looking for a curveball down in the zone. Maybe it got beat into the ground because the batter was just defending the plate and made enough contact to put the ball in play. Maybe he hung it and the batter just missed by 1/8th of an inch because he was looking fastball. It’s basically game theory.

Maybe the pitcher does have influence on batted balls, and you only see that influence when you group batted balls based on “hitters count” and “pitchers count” — That, i think, was the entire point of these questions. There’s obviously plenty of stuff out there that we don’t know, and it’s fun to spit ball.

Urban Shocker
11 years ago
Reply to  fothead

I agree; this whole series (this piece and the HR/FB ‘throwdown’) has come across as smug and patronizing. More disturbing, the piece has proceeded apace without any reference whatsoever to the long history of DIPS, and the many high quality studies accompanying it. Clearly the author believes in the strong form of DIPS (I’m stealing from EMH), and that’s fine, but I have yet to see anyone flat out refute Tom Tippett’s piece from 2002, which makes me a believer of a weak form of DIPS (meaning I think there is a great deal of variability, luck, AND pitcher skill in play here).

In addition, the outraged tone of this piece is intellectually offensive, practically preaching to the converted. Are there really Fangraphs readers who say low BABIP pitchers are ‘keeping hitter off-balance? Where, and I want a link.

See how condescending that is?

Patrick
11 years ago

Since we cannot yet prove that Loshe has a special weak contact skill, how do you project him? His BABIP has been about .270 for the last few years while the league average is about .295.

My inclination is that since we cannot prove whether it is him or luck is to project a BABIP near the middle of .270 and .295

surprised
11 years ago

very interesting! when MP first posed these challenges I thought it wouldnt amount to much, but this is a great deep dive into BABIP. It would be great to see more of these attempts to prove/disprove current preconceptions.

JasonSch
11 years ago

This is my first time posting….EVER. So go easy on me guys. Ok, so the fundamental question is whether or not a pitcher can influence the outcome of balls in play. Whether or not inducing weak contact is a skill. And to determine the answer to that question, we have all been researching BABIP. But BABIP only tells us if a ball in play is a hit. It does not differentiate between weakly hit balls and hard hit balls or what kind of hit occurred. It just tells us literally, batting avg on balls in play. But we don’t care about that. We literally shouldn’t care about BABIP for pitchers in regards to quality of contact.

To answer the question of whether a pitcher can induce weak contact, and if it is a repeatable skill, we should be researching the quality of contact. How can we better research this? I don’t have a perfect answer, but a simple off the top of my head method would be to examine a pitchers ISO allowed (adjusted for context of course). I think we can all agree that a pitcher that allows lots of extra base hits is at risk of allowing more runs to score than a pitcher that allows mainly singles. Is this a repeatable skill? I believe so.

Let’s look at some examples. Greg Maddux, allowed an ISO of .108 over the course of his career. Kevin Correia on the other hand has allowed an ISO of .161 over the course of his career. Other examples,

Kyle Lohse .159
David Price .125
Randy Johnson .132
Sandy Koufax .114
Kyle Davies .172
Good fastball Tim Lincecum 2007-2011 – .110
Slow fastball Tim Lincecum 2012-2015 – .162

Keep in mind this is raw unadjusted ISO, these are career numbers, not single season, and the sample size here is 8 pitchers so take it all with a grain of salt. A more detailed analysis would adjust for park effects, and run scoring environment of course. Someone with greater coding skill could get the ball rolling using this method or some other similar method that examines the quality of contact and see how well it correlates on a year to year basis. I am willing to bet that pitchers that would uniformly be considered good, are either able to consistently limit the quality of contact, or have high strikeout rates and low walk rates or some combination of those skills. BABIP be damned.

If you don’t like this method, then maybe using Baseball Info Solutions data on hard hit rate would be a further avenue for research. I am sure there are many other ways this can be investigated as well.

My guess is that someday further research will conclude that pitchers do indeed have the ability to influence the quality of contact. What percentage of control do they have? Is it 20%, 50% or 80%? I don’t know. But the ideal pitcher not only induces weaker contact than others, but also generates a lot of swing and misses, and limits walks. So let’s stop researching BABIP in regards to quality of contact, because it is freakin irrelevant. We can look to BABIP to see if a pitcher has been lucky/unlucky on whether balls in play became hits, but that’s about it.

Kris
11 years ago
Reply to  JasonSch

Great first post.

I believe what you’re suggesting in a round-about way, is calculating ISO based on replacing the denominator in both AVG and SLG with BIP. Obviously, we already have BABIP, and then 1B + 2 x 2B + 3 x 3B + 4 x HRs)/BIP.

What are the results, who knows? But this is one of those things that makes so much sense, that someone must’ve looked into it at some point… right?

JasonSch
11 years ago
Reply to  Kris

Thanks! It only took me 10 years to join the conversation!

Matthew Cornwell
11 years ago

Has nobody here ever read:

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/career_dips_numbers/ ?

Tom did figure out how many pitchers “should” be x number of SD away from average and of course pitchers have some impact on BABIP. It just takes a big sample size forthe signal to match the noise. I am not sure why we were barking up the right tree when discussing appropriate regression in terms of the r=.5 mark in HR/FB and then abandoning it here. Tom Tango and others have shown that 3,700 BIP is the r=.5 mark for BABIP. This article shows there are way to0 many outliers on the good and bad side for randomness to explain all of it. Way too many. The issue isn’t “does it exist”, But how much does it exist and how long does it take to find.

As far as why, I am shocked to hear that nobody has seen any articles about how it happens. Whether it be FG or BB Pro or Tango’s site or HBT…there have been dozens and dozens of articles that show at least small amounts of correlation between location of pitches, type of pitches, speed of pitches, direction of pitches, etc. Each time, the author says “there is a little but nothing definitive there.” Of course not – the sample sizes being drawn from is small. But when we look at career DIPS numbers for all pitchers compared to mates, there is a lot there. We may not know why yet, but we will at some point.