Pitching Scoring Change in ottoneu Points Leagues
Back in July, the man behind the scoring system for ottoneu FanGraphs Points leagues made a modest proposal for an update on pitcher scoring. Justin Merry was generally happy with the scoring system but found that the scores for a few random games made no sense.
To fix those, he recommended adding hits as a category, penalizing pitchers for each hit they allow, and reassessing the value of each of the other stats in accordance with that change. As we head towards 2012, the decision was made to accept his proposal and update scoring for pitchers. By looking back at 2011 stats, we can see the impact this scoring change will have.
First, let’s look at the old and new systems side by side.
| 2011 | 2012 | |
|---|---|---|
| IP | 5 | 7.4 |
| K | 2 | 2 |
| H | N/A | -2.6 |
| BB | -3 | -3 |
| HBP | -3 | -3 |
| HR | -13 | -12.3 |
| SV | 5 | 5 |
| HLD | 4 | 4 |
As you can see, there are only three changes: Hits, previously not part of the equation, are now worth -2.6 points, while an inning pitched gained value and home runs became less damaging in comparison to other hits (although they are actually more damaging overall, since a HR now costs you -12.3 for the HR and -2.6 for a hit).
The obvious change is that pitchers who give up a lot of hits will get hurt. In fact, a pitcher whose H/IP ratio is greater than .923 (2.4/2.6, the change in H value over the change in the value of an IP) will suffer as a result of this change, while those with a ratio under .923 will benefit. This isn’t a perfect rule, since pitchers with extreme HR totals (low or high) will also see a change.
Overall, the scoring change seems to hurt starting pitchers and help relievers. The average SP with at least 75 IP in 2011 would lose 14.8 points off his season total with this scoring change. The average RP with at least 20 IP in 2011 would gain 7.7 points.
It also seems to favor elite pitchers. The chart below shows average changes by tiers, with the tiers defined by scoring under the old system. For example, the “26-50” row below represents the average change for pitchers who ranked 26-50 in points based on the old system.
| Rank | SP | RP |
|---|---|---|
| Top 10 | 56.4 | 41.6 |
| Top 25 | 32.9 | 37.2 |
| 26-50 | -9.2 | 25.9 |
| 51-75 | -18 | 13.4 |
| 76-100 | -15.9 | 10.8 |
| 101-125 | -38.1 | 9.5 |
| 126-150 | -28 | -8.6 |
| 151-175 | -24.9 | 2.9 |
| 176-200 | -20.8 | 1.2 |
As you can see, the change in system is going to lead to the rich getting richer, relative to the poor. The difference is less stark for RP than for SP, but relievers are starting from a smaller base – the average top 25 SP accrued 1109.1 points last year, compared to just 558.1 from a top RP.
Of course, another change that jumps out is that the gap between SP and RP is going to get a bit thinner – the average top 100 RP will gain 21.8 points thanks to this change, while a top 100 SP will lose 2.5. That said, those SP put up 842.1 compared to 421.9 from the top 100 RP, so the 24.3 point closing of the gap makes a difference, but not a huge difference.
Finally, let’s take a look at the biggest gainers and losers among SP and RP. This table shows the top ten point gainers and losers among SP with 75+ IP and RP with 20+ IP.
| SP Gainers | Diff | RP Gainers | Diff | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Justin Verlander | 166.8 | Tyler Clippard | 94.3 | |
| Clayton Kershaw | 118.1 | Jonny Venters | 74.8 | |
| James Shields | 109.6 | Antonio Bastardo | 70.6 | |
| Jered Weaver | 106.4 | Koji Uehara | 64.9 | |
| Ricky Romero | 100.6 | Mike Adams | 64.8 | |
| Josh Beckett | 98.3 | Craig Kimbrel | 62.1 | |
| Cole Hamels | 92.3 | Alfredo Aceves | 60.8 | |
| Jeremy Hellickson | 88.7 | Daniel Bard | 59.1 | |
| Matt Cain | 78.1 | Aroldis Chapman | 59.0 | |
| Michael Pineda | 77.2 | David Robertson | 55.6 | |
| SP Losers | Diff | RP Losers | Diff | |
| Carl Pavano | -132.3 | Chris Jakubauskas | -61.1 | |
| Jeff Francis | -129.9 | Chad Durbin | -51.8 | |
| John Lackey | -129.8 | D.J. Carrasco | -51.5 | |
| Ricky Nolasco | -126.0 | Frank Herrmann | -45.1 | |
| Brad Penny | -124.4 | Shawn Camp | -44.7 | |
| Joel Pineiro | -112.4 | Jason Berken | -44.0 | |
| Nick Blackburn | -106.5 | Ryan Franklin | -42.8 | |
| Jo-Jo Reyes | -105.3 | Ramon Troncoso | -42.0 | |
| Brian Duensing | -99.1 | Aaron Laffey | -41.9 | |
| Rick Porcello | -96.6 | Aaron Heilman | -35.0 |
Not a ton to see here — as we saw earlier, the best get better, and some pretty mediocre guys get mediocre-er. There are a few exceptions, though. Jeremy Hellickson was the 85th highest scoring SP last year, but the new system would move him to 56th, which is a pretty significant jump. He kept his hits down and the new system rewarded him generously. On the other end, Carl Pavano and Ricky Nolasco were 33rd and 25th last year, respectively, but the new system drops them to 64th and 45th. This actually seems pretty reasonable to me. Does anyone really believe Pavano and Nolasco belong so high in the rankings? Does it make sense that they are both THAT much better than Hellickson?
So what does this mean for players preparing for a FanGraphs points league? To some extent, it suggests you shouldn’t change much. Pitchers as a whole lose a bit of ground here, but the top 100 SP barely shift and the top 100 RP gain ground, and that should account for almost all the pitchers owned in an ottoneu league. This suggests you should allocate slightly more money to RP last year than you did, taking ever so slightly away from your spending elsewhere. And by slightly, we are talking a couple dollars – a very minimal change.
You should also consider re-allocating your pitching dollars to focus more on elite arms, both starters and relievers. As noted above, the gap between elite arms and less than elite arms will grow noticeably, which means the cost of an elite arm, relative to any other, should grow, as well.
But probably the most important change is that you need to keep a close eye on pitchers likely to give up a ton of hits (or very few). With the new scoring system, a pitcher’s ability to avoid hits matters a lot. For the most part, this means getting a lot of strike outs – allowing fewer balls in play is the most tried-and-true method of allowing fewer hits.
A long-time fantasy baseball veteran and one of the creators of ottoneu, Chad Young's is the Managing Editor for RotoGraphs, and can be heard on the Keep or Kut Podcast. You can follow him on Bluesky @chadyoung.bsky.social.
I like it. Should be interesting to see how this affects strategy — and I bet there are some owners out there who are grumpy they didn’t know this before making a few trades this offseason.
Good thing I traded away Verlander, Sabathia, and Lee in the league we are in together. I would hate to have too many elite pitchers.
I strongly disapprove of this. Is Zach Britton responsible for Mark Reynolds at 3b? Is Greinke responsible for Yuni being less useful than a Fathead? The whole idea behind FIP is that pitchers have no control over a ball put in play, that it’s defense and luck.
This is a stats league that accounted for defensive variation by removing. Find me a proof that says hits are pitchers faults. Otherwise this is awful.
They do have control over not allowing the ball to go into play in the first place though. You are missing the point of excluding hits to begin with.
No he isn’t. The old system already accounted for this by giving points for Ks. Penalizing for hits is unnecessary once Ks are rewarded.
The pitchers that it will actually make a substantial difference for are giving up lots of well hit balls, not just the “tweeners” that squeak by one defense over another. Getting beat around the park isn’t really a good skill that should be rewarded. If they used line drives against, instead of hits against… then you would have the perfect solution but… they don’t.
Right, except that’s not how reality actually works.
Agree with the prior comment – this is terrible. This is moving away from what separated ottoneu from other fantasy formats and what attracted many of the initial players to the format.
I ran this point system as a head-to-head league in Yahoo last year… and due to the limitations of roster construction, it seemed unnecessary for anyone to waste a roster spot on an RP when pitching more innings is generally a better idea. You can’t set a max innings limit on Yahoo, so that is out (limiting to like 70ip would probably resolve the issue).
Short of restricting the roster limits verbally with the managers, how much should I adjust saves/holds point values to bring the RP value more in line with a starter?
Hopefully Yahoo will just add a max innings limit to h2h leagues and I won’t have to adjust anything 🙂
Silly me looking for a response here… come on Niv! How do I make this work? 🙂
I am not sure I fully follow the issue. If no one grabs a RP, and you decide to take 2-3 elite-level RP, you would a) get those guys at almost no cost, other than a roster spot and b) basically get bonus points from your RP spot that no one else gets. You’d start each week with a significant advantage over anyone who had no RP and therefore left those spots blank. It is possible that if people are over-paying for RP, than just skipping them altogether is a viable strategy, but if EVERYONE did that, they would be undervalued and you could do incredibly well snatching them up. It will fall into an equilibrium somewhere, but I can’t imagine that balance is at a point where you are better off not owning a RP.
What I noticed throughout the season is that you were almost always better off rostering a 2 start pitcher (almost any 2 start pitcher in fact…) than a closer/holder for any given week.
If there was an innings limit, then the owner would be responsible for how they filled those innings. Since Y! doesn’t let you set one, it was basically a race to 100ip each week. How good those innings were seemed to pale in comparison to getting the innings.
Ok, that makes sense. Realistically, the best way to do it is with an innings limit (which is why it works well in ottoneu.
If you just want to increase the save/hold value, you’d need to look at the average week for a 2 start SP and the average week for a solid reliever, and try to get those close to equal. The problem is, I think that would require doubling or tripling the value of a save or a hold, which seems horribly inaccurate.
Adding in the Hit change ottoneu is adding will help to close that gap. You could also add in a limit on roster moves – limit the ability of owners to stream 2-start pitchers each week.
Or go to weekly lineups – if I have to set my lineup Sunday night for the week, that means I can’t swap starting P in and out all week, which means I have no incentive to have more SP than I have SP slots, and means if I leave my RP slot blank, I cannot gain from leaving that slot blank. I assume the only way this works is if I have 5 SP slots and 7 SP who I swap in daily to maximize innings.
Yeah I was hoping to avoid doing the math, as increasing it “enough” seems unlikely to work out.
By the end of the year i could predict who would win each matchup just by looking at their 2-start pitchers, it was kind of depressing. Hopefully Y! gets off their butts and adds the pitching limits to H2H.
Thanks for the response Chad.
Who can I contact for openings in ottoneu leagues? Someone told me to tweet someone, but I don’t use Twitter. Is there someone I can email? Thanks!
We need an owner, league number 107. http://ottoneu.fangraphs.com/107/home
Team Rufous Motmots is available.
Get my email through Niv, or hit me up at townsend dot jb @gmail.com
yeah, help at ottoneu dot com, I can help you out.
I think it could’ve been more effective to have extra base hits hurt a pitcher. Singles are sometimes out of the pitchers hand and a result of bad luck. Extra base hits are almost always the result of a hard hit ball and a strong at bat.
I don’t have a big problem with this change from an objective standpoint. Batted ball luck is a fairly unavoidable aspect of hitting stats, and this does seem to pull pitcher values closer in line with their traditional/perceived values. I’m not completely sold that this is a step in the right direction versus simply “treading water” with regard to pitching luck, though.
Having said that, the biggest “con” overlooked in the prior article seems to be that determining player value in ottoneu (or any keeper league) is necessarily a multi-season calculation. For this reason, I think any change to the scoring system, in any long-term keeper league, should meet two qualifications:
1. Either (a) the change should be a clearly better way to mirror real-life value, or (b) it should make the scoring system simpler. I think there’s value in balancing the two. Perhaps you can argue that this new system is much better at mirroring real life value (as in things the pitcher can control), but as I said, I’m not 100% on board with that. It definitely doesn’t make the system simpler.
2. The change should be determined and announced at least one or two years in advance, preferably more, before it is implemented. I know this seems like a painfully slow timeline for those of us who just want to get it right or make it better, but people have invested time and possibly money into making decisions based on the old system, and now at least some of that work has been undone. (At least if you’re doing it right. If you’re not determining player values based on the scoring system, I guess it doesn’t matter. Also, I want to be in your league.)
The purpose of setting the time for the change a few years in advance is not just to give notice, but to give a few years’ worth of player value changes time to take place. I shouldn’t be banking on Verlander to be a stud four years from now—he may be, but the odds are he won’t be—so this would help minimize the negative effects of the change for those whose players have lost value.
Maybe I’m just a bitter former Verlander owner in my points league, but those are my two cents.
Maybe there is a way to reward GB?
Thanks for the feedback guys. A couple of points:
1) I don’t think this change is hugely significant across a large sample size, which Justin covered very well in his post. It’s more significant across single games, and I’m in favor of the kinds of changes it makes on a game by game basis.
2) To speak to jfwiii’s second point, I’m very sympathetic to that, but at the same time I’m still working out the kinks of communicating changes to the ottoneu user base on the whole as it is. Communicating and reminding of a change coming in 2 years is just not a reasonable thing for me to do or for ottoneu users to have to keep up on.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sympathetic to a lot of the concerns here – including hits seem to be a step backwards, and a change like this seems sudden and drastic. All I can say is that I don’t believe that the change will play out as drastically as you think (see: Justin’s original post) and fundamentally chalking all hits up to luck always is the same extreme as saying pitchers are the only person on the field responsible for a hit. -2.6 points isn’t necessarily giving 100% of the fault of the hit to a pitcher (that would be the -12.3 home run points), and all these things work more on a range than a simple black and white.
Please reach out to me if you have any further concerns. Help at ottoneu dot com or niv at ottoneu dot com works fine. And to the user who wants to join, email me!
I think the core issue a lot of people have is that if it was brought up in July, it should have been implemented at the end of the season before people started making offseason moves, or left until next year. Now that we’re almost at keeper deadline, the timing is very poor.
Well, it was brought up in July and I said then that I would implement it. Speaking back to my point above, its hard to keep reminding people that it is coming…
Again, totally understand where you are coming from, but just some perspective from my side on this.
I read the article in July but missed the confirmation of the change, although I guess that’s okay. I understand it is difficult to roll out that kind of notification to a large user base. However, I still think more than a half-season’s notice is necessary, primarily because of the change in balance between positions and the increase in elite SP value. To me, that’s not enough time to make the necessary adjustments—I think a few seasons need to play out in order to minimize the effect of the change on league balance.
I just sent you an e-mail outlining that concern a little more fully.
And I just want to say you still run the best fantasy baseball game on the planet. You’re incredibly attentive to user concerns, and anyone who hasn’t signed up for ottoneu doesn’t know what they’re missing.
The change will make a difference in how I value players, and I think it can probably be said that you didn’t give enough of an advance warning about it. I only really found out about the possibility of a change through RotoGraphs articles and/or tweets, and I believe I only found out that it was definitely happening through e-mailing you. Some kind of notification on the Ottoneu page itself would have been very helpful. I also thought there was a strong possibility that leagues could determine whether they used the new or old scoring system individually until today. It would be great to get some clarification on that. Disclaimer: I don’t mean any offense whatsoever by any of that; this has been one of the best fantasy leagues I’ve played in, largely due to good customer service.
This is the weighting that has worked well for us for a couple years. We use a small coefficient for hits to acknowledge SIERA’s observation that pitchers have a (small) contribution to BABIP. It also uses nice, round numbers (i.e. 2 points per Out).
Innings Pitched (IP) = 6
Saves (SV) = 6
Strikeouts (K) = 2
Hits Allowed (H) = -1
Walks Issued (BB) = -3
Home Runs Allowed (HR) = -12
Holds (HD) = 2
I didn’t read Merry’s post in detail, but to me it seems more elegant to start with FIP-ish stats and put in a LITTLE bit of noise with Hits. Just my 2 cents.
We have a calendar in each league with important upcoming dates, so why not one on the user dashboard that shows upcoming rule changes with links to what they signify?
I hate hate hate hate hate this.
If it’s not changed next year, my Ottoneu league (at the $99.99 tier) will likely move to ESPN and use the former ESPN scoring.