So is Trea Turner Really the #2 Second Baseman?
We knew Trea Turner would be donning a Nationals uniform at some point in 2016, we just didn’t know when. That he didn’t end up debuting this year until early June, was then quickly demoted after appearing in just two games, and then didn’t return to become a full-timer until mid-July was a bit surprising. That’s mostly because no one expected Danny Espinosa to hold the shortstop job for long, but he managed to, as a big June (.452 wOBA) helped keep him afloat. And while fantasy owners had to wait a little longer than we hoped, Turner didn’t disappoint. He was the 12th most valuable second baseman this season, despite recording just 324 plate appearances! That’s literally half a season. Obviously, his half-season performances raises our expectations to epic proportions. But can we legitimately say he should be the 2nd second baseman off the board, or second highest paid second baseman in auctions in 2017? Brad Johnson certainly thinks so.
Let’s begin with a dangerous activity that could potentially lead to overvaluation…extrapolating Turner’s stats over a full season!
| PA | HR | R | RBI | SB | AVG | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2016 Actual | 324 | 13 | 53 | 40 | 33 | 0.342 |
| 2016 Extrapolated – 650 PA | 650 | 26 | 106 | 80 | 66 | 0.342 |
WOAH. That’s literally Jose Altuve with an additional 36 stolen bases! My CBS Sports league ranks Mookie Betts as the most valuable player this year, but I’d bet that the extrapolated Turner line is actually more valuable, making a full-season Turner at that pace the best fantasy player. So in that case, ranking him second behind Altuve doesn’t seem so crazy. Of course, we need to figure out how sustainable Turner’s performance is. Do we really think he’s capable of socking 20+ homers or repeating that .340+ batting average?
Let’s begin with the power. After never posting more than a .169 ISO at any minor league stop, or better than a 45 AB/HR ratio, his power surged upon his arrival in Washington, as his ISO jumped to .225 and AB/HR dropped to about 24. His 16.7% HR/FB rate was far higher than I’m sure the most optimistic of optimists imagined his upside was this year. I have yet to develop a new xHR/FB rate equation that utilizes Statcast data, but his fly ball exit velocity of 88.9 mph was barely above the weighted league average of 87.8 mph. He also used the whole field on his fly balls, so we can’t point to an extreme pull tendency to explain the inflated HR/FB rate. So essentially, his power output looks like a fluke, which we all probably assumed to begin with. I’d figure he’s closer to a 10% HR/FB rate level, which puts him at about 15-16 homers for the year. Still positive value in the category, but not nearly as much as the extrapolated total.
Moving on to his batting average, an inflated .388 BABIP was behind the mark that would have finished third in baseball if he qualified for the leaderboard. Alex Chamberlain’s xBABIP equation suggests that although clearly a .388 mark was above his head, he was still well deserving of a hefty mark at .353. He also always posted sky high BABIP marks in the minors so this doesn’t look like a fluke. While I wouldn’t project a repeat, of course, I think the current published Steamer projection at .321 is far too low. So Turner could hit .300 again.
He’s probably not going to steal bases at the same rate as he did this year, but any concern about his OBP falling driven by a decline in BABIP and batting average could be offset by an increased walk rate. While his minor league walk rates have jumped around, they have sat around 10% the majority of the time, but he walked just 4.3% of the time in Washington. That’s odd since his Swing% was barely above the league average. I expect his walk rate to improve next year, offsetting some, if not all, of the BABIP decline, meaning that a stolen base drop won’t be affected too drastically by a dip in OBP.
So let’s say we have a 15-40 player here, while hitting around .300. That’s exactly what Altuve did in 2015 and he was the easy choice as the top second baseman off the board this year. Obviously it’s scary paying such a high price for a player with such a limited track record that only performed for half a season (see: Carlos Correa for a recent example), but Turner’s skill set is more broad based and less prone to a sophomore slump since his value is driven more by his speed. While it’s going to be a while before I have math-based rankings, I would be pretty surprised if Turner did not come out as my projected second most valuable second baseman.
Mike Podhorzer is the founder of ProjectingX IQ, an advanced fantasy baseball analytics platform that transforms projection data and in-season performance signals into actionable intelligence. He is the 2015 Fantasy Sports Writers Association Baseball Writer of the Year and three-time Tout Wars champion. He is the author of the eBook Projecting X 2.0: How to Forecast Baseball Player Performance, which teaches you how to project players yourself. Follow Mike on X@MikePodhorzer and contact him via email.
The difference being, of course, that Altuve never strikes out and Turner has shown a propensity for whiffs in the past. Obviously if his ISO holds up that’s not a problem, but if his K rate regresses up and ISO regresses down then it would take a big chunk out of his value.
Well obviously if he performs worse his fantasy value will drop! If any hitter strikes out more and hits for less power, he’s going to be worth less in fantasy.
The point being that his minor league whiff rate and power numbers both suggest that regression is likely
Interesting. I’ve always coveted him for the MI position (I already have Altuve and Seager in a keeper league) but couldn’t get a trade finished. It’s an OBP league so if Turner can manage a walk rate that’s close to what he had in the minors, his value goes up.
One thing I’m concerned about: since I play only in dynasty formats, what is the likelihood that he moves back to SS? Espinosa was pretty dreadful with the bat the second half of the season. Will his excellent glove keep him at that position?
Do the Nats see Turner as their permanent CF going forward?
I am looking for an OF. Do you think somebody like Salazar could get me Turner? In a 14 team 12 keeper league, I feel like I should only keep 3 starters (CMart, Carrasco and it’s a toss up between McCullers and Folty for the last spot. I probably like Folty more than others do.) Thanks for the column!
Unfortunately many nats fans are in the same place, we’re not sure where he’ll end up. I don’t think Espinosa will be the regularly shortstop breaking camp again, the Nats won’t go through another year of that. Similarly I expect them to non-tender Ben Revere. So the question is whether they can fill SS or CF more easily. Given the lack of available SS’s out there, especially compared to CF/OF (and we can shift Bryce to CF if necessary), AND given that SS is Turner’s natural position, I think he breaks camp as the starter at SS
It should cost MUCH more than Salazar to get to Turner. Like 2.5X Salazar. And trust me, I’m a big Salazar fan.
Well Marcel’s predicts them to be the 2 batting champions if that means anything.
Will he be 2B eligible? There’s only a very slight chance he plays 2B regularly (if R. Zimmerman dies and they shift Murphy over)
His power probably was a fluke. His BABIP was unsustainable. His stolen base attempts will be down (mainly due to a lower OBP) and his success rate will decline somewhat. So most of us probably agree his production will decline.
With Altuve, Cano, Kipnis, Dozier, Kindler, Zobrist, Murphy, Pedroia and Carpenter in the mix, I just don’t see Turner being a top tier 2B option. But I have no doubt he will be quite good.
Remember when Mike trout only hit a HR every 47+ AB in the minors? Not comparing the 2 at all, just wondering, what was the prognosis on Trout’s 35 rookie HR (2011-2012)?
I’m gonna be one of the fools who overpays for Turner and it’s mostly based on watching young players come up and dominate while waiting too long to buy. Finally ponied up this past season with Seager and it paid off. But in the big picture this will be a knee jerk reaction on my part to small sample size. What could go wrong?
I usually end up paying for rookies and third year players. Players like Turner often seem to be disappointing their second year, only to be undervalued the year after.
I think the best comp for Trea Turner is Jacoby Ellsbury. The 50-70 SB upside, will likely live in the 10- 15 HR range, and maybe sprinkle in an odd 20+ season. I wish we had exit velocity data on young Ellsbury, but he used to just barrel up the ball a lot. Watching Trea Turner and looking at exit velocity, you see the same, he just makes solid, hard contact.
They have similar walk rates, and really similar plate discipline, especially in regards to O-swing, Z-swing, swing%. Turner strikeouts more than Ellsbury, with a 10+ swSt%, as opposed to Ellsbury’s career 6% mark. The big difference here is contact on swings outside the strike zone. Trea is making contact on 60% and Ellsbury lived in the mid 70s%.
If Trea Turner can figure out how to foul off pitches on his swings that are outside the strike zone, he should be able to reach that Ellsbury ceiling, and Trea Turner exceed Ellsbury’s mostly-annual sub 10 HR output, though he might never touch Ellsbury’s career-high, flukey 36 HR season.
How do you find FB EV? I’ve tried the Baseball Savant player page but only see by pitch type. The MLB player page has Avg EV.
Befriend Andrew Perpetua and ask him really, really nicely! The data isn’t available on the Savant site, so someone like Paul has to download all the data and then query it.