Ranking Carlos Carrasco
I bared my moderately flawed initial fantasy rankings for public consumption yesterday. Perhaps the most divisive selection is Carlos Carrasco as the fourth ranked starting pitcher.
It’s not my intention to make this another analysis of Carrasco. Mike Podhorzer already covered him. Carson Cistulli provided visual evidence of uncanny changeups. Eno Sarris and Daniel Schwartz have been working on a pitch arsenal score. The current iteration rates Carrasco as possessing the third best assemblage of pitches.
Moreover, Carrasco possesses all the desirable attributes of a fantasy pitcher. He threw 95 mph gas last season, struck out more than a batter per inning with a 13 percent whiff rate, and limited walks (1.95 BB/9). He had an above average ground ball rate and below average line drive rate. Cleveland’s defense should be stouter. With a fantastic arsenal at his disposal and newly discovered confidence, Carrasco looks the part of a fourth overall pitcher.
In a tweet to fantasy guru Ray Flowers, I let my bullish ranking leak on Twitter with the caveat that it’s “crazy.” By crazy, I meant Carrasco would probably fall to the 10-20 range as I polish my rankings. Ray suggested I add at least a four to my rank, implying that he sees 44th as a ceiling for Carrasco. Other commenters agreed that they like Carrasco as a sleeper, but they aren’t inclined to dive off the deep end with me. That’s fine.
I’m having some trouble though. Intellectually, I know I’m supposed to be worried about his short track record. But unlike Jesse Hahn, who I have ranked in the 80’s, I’m having trouble generating concern about Carrasco’s shaky past. I watched the Indians a fair amount down the stretch last season, and I felt Carrasco was out-pitching Cy Young winner Corey Kluber. And not just on outcomes, his stuff struck me as superior too.
When you get these weird rankings, it can help to play a “would you rather” game. I have David Price ranked fifth. All things equal, I should prefer to own Price. I should also prefer to own Stephen Strasburg, Chris Sale, and Madison Bumgarner. But here’s the thing, I don’t even have to squint to picture Carrasco outperforming them. Then there’s the likelihood that Carrasco will cost no more than half as much as this cohort of pitchers. That doesn’t affect my rankings directly, but it does improve the warm and fuzzy feeling associated with him.
Even if I make the adjustment, how much further can I go down the list? I get to Phil Hughes at number 15 and Jake Arrieta at number 16. Perhaps I’m systematically over-ranking short track record, top performers from 2014. I certainly can’t rank Carrasco lower than Arrieta, but maybe Arrieta should also be lower.
Unfortunately, there just aren’t that many more guys I see with anything like Carrasco’s skill set. Adam Wainwright, perhaps, if he bounces back. Possibly Cole Hamels. Masahiro Tanaka if he’s unphased by his elbow. Matt Harvey if he pitches like Clayton Kershaw during his partial season.
I can and will rank Carrasco lower than fourth when I produce something like a final ranking. A brief poll of the market via Twitter seems to think he’s around the 44th pitcher. Meanwhile, I can’t fathom justifying even a 20th ranking. The more I look at this, the more I’m convinced he’s going to wind up somewhere around the eighth to 12th pitcher on my board. It must just be my lack of concern over track record.
At the end of the day, I’ve always leaned towards extreme aggression when setting my ranks and values. Sometimes it leads me astray, but not often enough to teach me caution. It’s for this reason that I’m unconcerned about diverging so far from an established fantasy expert like Flowers. The biggest issue I find is with this job: I write about players like Carrasco, and then I have to push through price enforcers on draft day. Maybe my league mates won’t see this…
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Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.”
So said Emerson. I love the fact that you are widely different from the crowd. and its not just that I think you are right. I rate degrom right there with him.
At lot of us RotoGraphers are on the deGrom bandwagon too. For some reason, I was able to be a little more conservative with him :). I think he could be a better version of Cole Hamels.
Why Cole Hamels?
That comp makes literally zero sense.
He has a lethal changeup with a full repertoire surrounding it. Hamels gets by with fewer tools.
I enjoyed the rankings yesterday, as did a shit-tonne of people based on the number of simultaneous viewers.
Because there are so many rankings out there, and notgraphs does a consensus anyways, it makes sense to go batshit crazy over some guys. Generate some buzz, etc.
Agreed. I love extreme rankings when an individual is willing to discuss them.
Interesting ranking and interesting article. Carrasco wasn’t even on my radar last year, so I find this useful.
“Unfortunately, there just aren’t that many more guys I see with anything like Carrasco’s skill set.”
If it turns out that you wildly over-rated Carrasco, I think this sentiment might be the culprit. I don’t mean to be snarky, but roto leagues are won by results, not skill sets. The translation of skills to results has been shown by Carrasco, but only over a very short time period compared to his cohorts at the top of the SP rankings.
As long as you manage your risks appropriately, paying for skills is not a bad strategy, IMO. Especially when the upside is so high for a guy entering his age-28 season.
Thing is..he was pumping gas.. However, I really want to see where his Velocity is in ST and if how/if it builds back up as keeps making starts. For all that nice Velocity. A lot pitchers can say they have more movement on the pitch that he does. Much Prefer deGroom over him also.
Has anybody done any research on the sustainability of pitch type peripheral statistics? I can certainly understand the Carrasco love since his success was matched by high GB% and SwStr% on his individual pitches, but who’s to say that those stats won’t regress next year?
Without seeing a piece proving that pitch type peripherals are more predictive of future K% and BB% than historical K% and BB%, I would have to tend towards steamer’s projection.
I picked him up for AJ Pollock early in the offseason. I don’t think the guy knew what he had, and I’m not sure I totally knew what I was getting either. The hype he’s gotten since has been unbelievable, but I’m not complaining.
Take off those Carrasco goggles!
I was lucky enough to see Carrasco pitch in person last year. I only had a vague memory of him as a prospect, but when I saw him pitch I wondered why he was not an established star. I know how flawed the “eye test” is, but one of my main off season goals was to trade for Carrasco before his awesomeness became widely known.
Fortunately I did so before you spread the word about him. I suspect the asking price would be higher at this point.
I saw Carrasco pitch multiple times last year and he definitely has top-ten stuff. I’m torn between him and Arrieta in terms of sustainability, but I think Carrasco has a better chance of becoming a top-five pitcher. What do you think Carrasco will go for in a 12 team keeper league auction (traditional 5×5 roto scoring)?
Today, I suspect the bidding would stop in the $10-15 range. That could change closer to the season.
Like Jose Abreu last season, you could see final bids anywhere from $5 to $28. (that was the actual range in my leagues)
You’re right, Abreu is a great model for his projection. I think I’d be willing to pay $14 but anything higher presents a pretty large risk. I think he might wear down later in the year, but I’m excited to see what he can do in a full season. Great list by the way.
As a recent fangraph article suggested. Arrieta improvement came from throwing the slider over 24% because his fastball is below average. The odds that arrieta get injured is higher and I will be stating away from him. He would not be in top 40sp in my list
Arrieta is part of today’s article, which is delayed due to sleep.
It’s sure nice to see someone rank a position without just averaging a few of the top sites. I may not see Carrasco as top 4…but this list is refreshing and food for thought. Thanks
I’m very much on the bandwagon, as Carrasco led my team to a feverish late season comeback in 2014, and I watched him pitch a bunch. But I have to always remind myself how humbling this sport can be. Most of the short sample hotshots from 2013 floundered in 2014 – e.g. Salazar and Cingrani. Probably not wise to expect cy young numbers from Carrasco, but I for one will try to pounce in the early-middle rounds.
“I watched the Indians a fare amount down the stretch last season”
What was the amount they charged you? Doesn’t seem very fair.
Grumble…
Take up your grievance with the editors. Oh wait…
Why is Carrasco not going to pull a Danny Salazar? I know they’re different guys, but last year sure was a bummer for those of us who reached for Salazar. He was unhittable in 2013.
One thing Carrasco has over Salazar is a strong GB%. Salazar’s ERA will always be at greater risk if he gives up those home runs at inopportune times. Still, Salazar looks like a pretty good pitcher, doesn’t he?
Salazar still looks like he’ll be good, sure. It’s just that guys like Carrasco get us all giddy at the draft table. Would you be the least bit surprised if Carlos has troubles this year similar to troubles he’s had before? He seems to be a real major league SP, but do you feel confident he’ll be consistent enough to be ranked near guys like Scherzer, Lester, Strasburg, et al?
That is the risk. It’s why he’ll be moved down the draft board by the time I finalize these rankings. Carrasco is as good a bet as any to finish as the best non-Kershaw imo, but he certainly comes with a lot more risk than a David Price.
No mention of his career ERA being .65 runs above his career FIP? Even with last year’s .274 babip, his career babip is .309 and his BIP-Wins is -1 over 372.1 IP. His LOB-Wins is also -.4. Also, his career HR/FB% is 11.2 compared to last year’s 7.1.
Maybe all of this is random noise, but it definitely gives me pause when evaluating his future.
Well, now he learned how to use his crazy arsenal properly…Before he was a thrower, now he’s a pitcher.
I didn’t read this, Brad. Didn’t see it at all…
Very aggressive, but I have to admit that I’m drinking the Kool-Aid as well. I watched about 6 of his starts last season, and but for that strange start against the Tigers when he allowed something like 10 hits in 5 IP, he was incredible. I snagged him for basically nothing in my dynasty league, and I now think he’ll be right there with Price and Darvish (my top 2 guys) on a rate-basis, if for fewer innings.
How about a dynasty trade thoughts then: Giolito for Carrasco, who wins?
I’d happily take Carrasco every time, but that’s me. I just ranked him #4 after all.
I have always been of the opinion that too many fantasy analysts shape their rankings to match the general consensus rather than what they truly think. Even if I wouldn’t take Carrasco as the fourth overall starter, just knowing an analyst I respect thinks he could be ranked there is enough to move him up my draft list. Matching consensus is useless.
Would you trade Stanton for Carrasco or is that too much?
way too much buy lower sell higher
Definitely way too much. I might consider a package including Carrasco for Stanton if it also included a Carlos Gomez/Michael Brantley type.
Basically, you shouldn’t have to pay for a #4 overall pitcher to acquire Carrasco. Maybe more like a #25, and if you’re lucky, his owner views him as an anomaly.
I think we should all be thankful: it is fantasy “experts” such as Flowers that allow me (and a lot of us here) to get away with some serious draft-day bargains. It’s the people who blindly follow him that keep in tact the market inefficiencies on which we feast. I’ve had success with Iwakuma, Kluber and Ross the past two years. I fully expect Carrasco to be my guy this year.
Also, you mentioned DeGrom in an earlier comment. He looks good on a per-game basis. I really hope he earns his way into the rotation, and quickly.
I think deGrom has to have a truly terrible spring to lose his job.