How to Talk Trade
I have made a lot of trades in my fantasy baseball “career”. It’s one of the parts of the game I enjoy most, but I’ve learned over the years that there is a wide range of comfort among owners when it comes to shaking up their rosters via trade. For some fantasy owners, the process and preparation required to put together a good trade is a burden, and for others the uncertainty of the resulting impact (“will this really help my team?”) and/or the feedback from their league (“did I win or lose this trade?”) is enough to cause anxiety.
Part of the reason I enjoy fantasy trades is because I’ve had the benefit of corporate negotiation training throughout my professional career. While it’s certainly true that my fantasy baseball experience has had a positive impact on my professional bargaining skills, there is no doubt my vocational training has made me more confident (and successful) in the fantasy “trade room”, too. Today I’ll share a little of what I’ve learned throughout my own trade history in hopes of offering something you can use as well.
How to Talk Trade
All too often it’s not necessarily what you say but how you say it that makes the difference. What follows are some alternative ways to phrase common trade responses that might make the difference between closing a deal or stopping one early in it’s tracks.
When receiving a trade offer you plan to reject:
Your Common Response: “This trade wouldn’t help me at all.”
Alternate: “Can you explain the basis of your proposal?” or “Perhaps you can explain your reasons before I respond/decide?”
At worst, this alternative helps you get to know the thought process of your leaguemate a little better (think poker; play the long game), often reveals more about how your competitor values players (yours and theirs), and can occasionally lead to a more worthwhile conversation that forms the basis for mutual gain.
Your Common Response: “This trade doesn’t work for me.”
Alternative 1: “What is your primary goal here?”
Alternative 2: “What are you trying to achieve in this deal?”
Similar to above – what you’re after here is information, understanding, and relationship. Context matters, and when you can get more of it, better deals occur.
Your Common Response: “I don’t think I can part with (my) X player.”
Alternative 1: “Just suppose I was to agree to trade X player, would you also consider…?”
Alternative 2: “If I agree to include X, would you include Y?”
These alternatives require an “open door” policy in which any trade offer could theoretically form the basis of an acceptable deal so long as the proposing owner is willing to meet your price. In other words, any player is available, at the right price. However, the mistake many owners make is slamming the door (reject) too quickly and failing to test the waters to discover what price the owner is actually willing to pay (which can often wind up in your favor). You’ll never know unless you ask.
When receiving a trade offer you might consider acceptable:
Your Common Response: “I’m considering your offer.”
Alternative 1: “Under what circumstances would you add X (or change Y)?”
Alternative 2: “I think we’re close, but why is it important to you to have (my) X player included?”
Alternative 3: “What do I need to do to get a better deal?”
When closing in on a deal, it never hurts to ask specifically about ancillary players that might make the deal more favorable or practical (especially true in deep daily leagues like Ottoneu with 40 man rosters and 480+ players owned). You won’t know the price of adding those players until you ask, and phrasing your inquiry properly can reveal player valuations that help you find a better match than the original offer.
When discussing the rejection of a trade you’ve offered:
Your Common Response: “Why did you reject?” or “What was wrong with that?”
Alternative 1: “Which aspects of my offer were you unhappy with?”
Alternative 2: “What information are you using to make your decision?”
Alternative 3: “How do your valuations of player X differ from the projections?”
Alternative 4: “What would make my original proposal acceptable?”
Once again, the alternatives here demonstrate “a strength of being open to learning and persuasion, being skilled at figuring out their motives, and being extremely creative.” Alternative 1 can help you isolate the specific parts of your trade that might be tweaked to form a better counter offer. Alternative 3 can be especially effective since you’re attempting to point to an independent, outside source of valuation (like Depth Chart ROS projections) because it can reveal how your competitor measures various players.
I’ll post more negotiation advice in the future, but hopefully these subtle alternatives can help you open the door to more successful trades and relationships within your league. Other trade advice? Let me know in the comments.
Some additional trade advice here.
Trey is a 20+ year fantasy veteran and an early adopter of Ottoneu fantasy sports. He currently administers the Ottoneu community, a network of ~1,200 fantasy baseball and football fans talking sports daily. More resources here: http://community.ottoneu.com
Good post. The only issue is, you are under the assumption that your league mates are reasonable people. I have a league mate that has been trying to offer me Gio Gonzalez for Max Scherzer (among other equally bad offers) based on the ERA, fully knowing Max is the better pitcher. I would love to be in a league that is full of rational people! haha
Yeah, no joke. In my league, people prefer to see one team not improve 10% vs their own team improve 20% via a trade.
You can also use people like that to your advantage and buy low/sell high on a lot of players. Something like Trumbo for Harvey right now as an example.
Did you send any offer back or try to make it a conversation? I always consider first trade proposals just a starting point. A way of saying, hey… I like this guy and this guy is available.
Trey,
I enjoyed this article and will try to use your suggestions in the future. Could you devote a future post to strategies for engaging with owners who don’t respond and/or merely reject trade offers?
Good topic idea. I’ll give this some thought and see what I can do.
Unfailingly, the most difficult aspect of trading that I experience is talking people off their own valuations. Overperformer A is always breaking out and worth a premium. Underperformer B is always going to turn it back on and is still worth yesterday’s price.
I had a guy in one of my RCL Leagues offer me Matt Holliday and Kevin Gausman for Sano?? Classic 5×5
Assuming it’s not a keeper, I’d definitely rather have the Gausman side.
This was awesome. Useful and good reminders on some points of negotiation and salesmanship that we often forget.
My favorite technique:
I am interested in players A,B,C,etc on your roster.
I could move: X, Y, Z
Do you see a match here? Maybe something like A/B for Y/Z?
You then very often get a proposal that is around your expectation level for players you can live with dealing.
Even better: you never actually commit to a hard proposal. You either let your trade partner determine the mutually agreeable price and agree to it or you are in a great position for a “throw me a sweetener and we’re there” best/final.
Here’s my suggestion on How to Talk Trade: Actually propose a trade! What bugs me are people who say something like: “I need an outfielder and am willing to trade a pitcher. Make me an offer.” Hey buddy, if you need an outfielder how about YOU making ME an offer! You expect me to make an offer and have it hang out there for four or five or six days, and then put up with your derogatory rejection? No thanks!
The non-response after they approach you is definitely one of the most annoying tactics used. Also (which I guess is the purpose of the article) people who approach you about a trade, reject, and offer no counter. It’s supposed to be a negotiation. I almost always will give a counter proposal, unless the trade is completely ridiculous. That doesn’t mean a deal always gets done, but at least there’s a bracketing of expectations that you can go forward with.
I’ll look for a counter proposal to most offers, but it doesn’t always make sense to make one.
I have a league full of coward twats. Ask on ‘X’ player and they suddenly assume its just a commodity and won’t deal him. One nitwit in the league was offered Bryce Harper OR Mike Trout, Jose Fernandez, and a round four pick for Correa and stubbornly declined. This is a player who should be banned from ever playing.
You need to realize that anytime someone offers that much for Correa they also prefer the Correa side of the trade. Maybe it’s a keeper league and maybe Correa is cheap, but people often have valid reasons for declining trade offers. And if they really don’t know how to vlaue players, then why ban them from a league? Should be one less person to worry about. Some trades are not going to happen because people value things diffrently, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the people are acting irrationally.
the problem with the suggested vocabulary is that you can’t generalize how you discuss trades. There are players in my leagues that if I talked like this to them (myself included) I’d never get a deal done. You have to play to the personality your dealing with.
Also, be honest with your goals. Don’t say “I’m looking for an OF” if the only OF on his roster you are interested in is Stanton. Just say ” what do you want for Stanton”
And if what you want for Stanton is Blake snell and Addison Russell, say “I’ll do it for snell and Russell”
Then counter. Then say yes or no.
But don’t play games.
And at the end, if we agree in a deal and you reneg and shop around? I’m done with you.
I think there is some nuance to the renegging trader persona. They are the ones who will never accept a deal that they don’t propose because, I assume, they think they’ll only “win” a trade if they are on offense. “Uh oh, if he’s so eager to make that deal that he’d get me the offer right after we agree to it verbally then I must be the dumb money at the table… I’m out.”
It’s infuriating, but some see fantasy baseball as an intelligence test instead of a game to distract you from work. You can’t be an idiot not taking action that nobody knew you had the opportunity to take…but you still get the same thrill of (almost) trading! Now that IS genius.
right. Couldn’t agree more. Also, I think more often than not we tend to outsmart ourselves when we analyze trades, or try and add point value etc… in the end, if youre that smart, you’re not making any deals, because rarely does a trade make mathematical sense.
Teams that trade and win do so by finding one owner who sells off assets with a loan and makes a bad deal for this season. Period. as the format evolves and leagues get older and teams get wiser, THAT GETS A LOT HARDER.
In the real world, btw, I’m a VP of a major home builder. I negotiate for a living. One thing I have to say that is is pure fact, is that if I was holding private negotiations with a land seller for a tract of land, and he went on a public forum IN THE MIDDLE of these negotiations, and said “in negotiations for parcel 5 of country road 535 and Slidell rd… With three people. Might want to get involved today” I would pull my bid and he’d never get another offer from me ever again. I would venture to guess that four of the others would do the same and do.
Point is that when that happens you don’t increase your value, you decrease it, because you lose buyer and competition. maybe it’s just me but it’s a major turnoff.