Billy Hamilton, 2nd Rounder
On Tuesday night, I participated in the 15-team LABR Mixed League draft (full team recap coming Monday). If you were following the draft live and/or were active on Twitter during the evening, you may very well be aware of the firestorm that erupted after my second round selection. I drew the #11 draft slot, which meant that my second round pick was the 20th. I settled on Billy Hamilton and I will explain why.
But before I successfully convince you that Hamilton was indeed worthy of being selected 20th overall, I want to mention that I was expecting Ryan Braun to make it to me. If that had happened, he would have been my pick, as I had the two equally valued. Naturally, he was selected the pick right before mine, which we affectionately like to call getting “sniped”. That’s why it’s always vital to have two potential picks in mind, so you don’t panic and try to decide on your pick before the clock runs out.
So Billy Hamilton. 20th overall. Is it crazy? Check out his current NFBC ADP:
| Rank | Avg Pick | Min Pick | Max Pick |
|---|---|---|---|
| 45 | 46.95 | 17 | 65 |
It’s true that his ADP of about 47 suggests that this was a “reach” (a term I still haven’t fully figured out what is meant by it). However, check that Min Pick number. It’s 17. That means that at least one person in NFBC drafts felt he was worthy of the #17 pick. Does that then make it okay to take him that early or at 20? Absolutely not. I’m sharing this because frankly, I was a bit surprised by the vehemently negative reaction stirred up by my selection. You know how many players in this draft went far earlier than their Min Pick? A heck of a lot. So I personally didn’t think this was such a headscratcher, regardless of what my own values told me.
On Twitter, some reactors simply assumed my projections for Hamilton must have been much more optimistic than everyone else. That’s a normal reaction. Generally, we draft players we like more than the rest! It’s not always the case of course, but it would be unusual to draft a player who you project to perform worse than the rest of your leaguemates. So let’s compare my 5×5 projections with the rest of the systems and include his 2014 stats:
| System | AB | AVG | HR | RBI | R | SB | BABIP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2014 | 563 | 0.250 | 6 | 48 | 72 | 56 | 0.304 |
| Pod | 604 | 0.257 | 6 | 43 | 79 | 62 | 0.310 |
| Steamer | 507 | 0.245 | 6 | 39 | 62 | 56 | 0.292 |
| ZiPS | 578 | 0.262 | 6 | 51 | 82 | 63 | 0.327 |
| Fans (20) | 657 | 0.260 | 5 | 42 | 71 | 62 | 0.316 |
| Average* | 581 | 0.256 | 6 | 44 | 72 | 60 | 0.312 |
*The average of Steamer, ZiPS and Fans only
Would you look at that. My batting average projection is dead on with the average, as is both my homers and runs batted in. The stolen bases are essentially the same, and only are my runs scored a bit optimistic compared to the average of the systems. But those counting stats are brought down by Steamer’s pessimistic AB projection. Given Hamilton’s pitiful .287 wOBA last season, perhaps it’s justifiable to consider that his playing time, or at least spot atop the order, is at risk.
But there are two factors here that mitigate that risk in my mind. First, Hamilton was exceptional defensively in center field, posting a 21.7 UZR/150. Even with his poor offense, his fielding and base running were strong enough to record a 3.5 WAR. The Reds have no real candidates to replace Hamilton in center field and given his overall performance, are unlikely to be looking to replace him.
So that’s what’s keeping him in the lineup. But his place atop the order also seems safe. Because, once again, who the heck else are they going to bat at the top?! Brandon Phillips? His projected OBP is barely higher. A team that thinks outside the box might consider Joey Votto, but the Reds aren’t that team. Hamilton is going to lead off all year and stay there.
So if it’s not a matter of a difference in projections, then it must come down to valuation. Valuing players ain’t easy. But it all comes down to math. If you’re not using math to devise your rankings, you’re just making guesses at a player’s worth. I don’t like guessing.
It’s true that we have yet to develop a perfect valuation system and each of the well known ones will produce slightly different values. But they are all still fairly similar. I use a system designed by our friend Todd Zola over at Mastersball, because I’m not smart enough to come up with my own. Without getting into the boring details, the system compares a player’s 5×5 stats to a mythical replacement level player at that position. It then compares the player’s adjusted stat line to the aggregate stats of the entire population of positively valued players.
I have Hamilton as the 15th most valuable player. In my mind, I actually netted a bit of profit snagging him 20th! Let’s find out how that is possible. My spreadsheet displays exactly how much a player’s dollar value is derived from each category. His stolen base dollars earned is actually higher than his overall value. That means that his other four categories combine for negative value. Really though, his batting average is about neutral, and he’s a decent positive in runs. Not surprisingly, it’s the homers and runs batted in categories he hurts you in.
How valuable are Hamilton’s steals? The value they earn him is the most value earned in any single category by any player. Dee Gordon‘s steals are next, followed by Ben Revere’s steals. It’s because stolen bases are concentrated in a couple of the top guys and then fall off significantly. On the other hand, home runs are much more evenly distributed, so no one guy is going to earn an extreme amount from his contributions there.
Let’s dive into a bit of math. Below is a comparison of Hamilton’s stolen base contribution to Giancarlo Stanton’s home runs. Stanton’s home run contribution earned him the second most home run value, just behind Evan Gattis.
| Hamilton’s Projected SBs | Adjusted SBs* | Projected SBs Entire Pool* | % of Pool |
|---|---|---|---|
| 62 | 55 | 1,039 | 5.3% |
| Giancarlo Stanton’s Projected HRs | Adjusted HRs* | Projected HRs Entire Pool* | % of Pool |
|---|---|---|---|
| 35 | 23 | 1,114 | 2.1% |
*The two columns with the asterisk account for replacement level. Basically, I calculated that a replacement level outfielder, one you could acquire freely during the season, should steal seven bases. Similarly, you could find 12 home runs floating around your waiver wire. If those stats are freely available, you shouldn’t pay for them at the draft or your auction. So we remove seven steals and 12 homers from every outfielder. That’s the second “Adjusted” column. The same process is done for every player at each position and then summed. The “Entire Pool” column listed next is the sum of those adjusted stats after replacement level production is removed from each player.
So now we could look at what percentage of the positively valued player pool does Hamilton’s steals and Stanton’s home runs represent. You learn that the share of the entire pool that Hamilton’s steals represent is more than double Stanton’s share from his homers. I then take that percentage and multiply it by the money allocated to the category. That’s simply pretending each team had a standard $260 budget, multiplying that by 15 LABR teams, assuming 69% of the budget is used for hitting, and then dividing that by five to evenly distribute the dollars to each roto category. And that’s how you get a value of $28.68 earned from Hamilton’s steals versus $11.22 from Stanton’s home runs.
If you buy into this valuation method, which I have for 10 years, then there’s no arguing Hamilton’s worth. You could absolutely disagree with the projections. You could even tell me that strategically, you avoid drafting one-category guys and prefer to go after more balanced players. That’s all cool and valid reasons for stating that you personally would not have made the pick. But the math is the math and the math says that Hamilton, given his above projected stat line, is worth a 20th overall selection.
Be aware that these valuations are strictly for the 15-team LABR Mixed league format. In a shallower league, such as a 12-teamer, Hamilton is probably worth less, perhaps significantly so. As I’ve said many times in past posts, player valuations could change drastically depending on your league format.
Mike Podhorzer is the founder of ProjectingX IQ, an advanced fantasy baseball analytics platform that transforms projection data and in-season performance signals into actionable intelligence. He is the 2015 Fantasy Sports Writers Association Baseball Writer of the Year and three-time Tout Wars champion. He is the author of the eBook Projecting X 2.0: How to Forecast Baseball Player Performance, which teaches you how to project players yourself. Follow Mike on X@MikePodhorzer and contact him via email.
My 5×5 formula for Steamer projections has Hamilton as 28th most valuable. My formula for Hamilton with Pod projections, has him 16th. If you believe in your own projections -and you clearly do- you did the right thing. Good pick Mike.
The only question here is whether it would have been wise to see if you could get Hamilton at 3.11, 41st overall. In an expert league, that’s probably not a great idea though as many others in LABR would also share the opinion that he’s been under-drafted in NFBC.
Good draft
Not sure what kind of math you guys are using… my math ranks him at #52, thats based on steamer. One category just doesnt justify #20 overall on any planet.
Whatever 5×5 valuation you are using, it is broken if you have him 52nd with Steamer’s projections. Get something new would be my recommendation, or you’re at a serious disadvantage in any league you play in.
Love all the data and explanation, i’m just not a manager who takes that speedball type early. I get that having over 5% of the stls pool is huge but I always go with good power bats early. I feel I get more out of it than leaguemates who build around speed. Without worrying much about average, Hamilton is great in steals, good in runs. My power guy will be good in hrs, runs, rbi, ops. I’m getting the jump on 4 cats, not 2. I cant take that 2 cat guy early and win unless I hit the jackpot in mid rounds with power. Which was maybe possible last year with likes of Cruz, Gattis, Duda etc. providing great value power. But you’d need a great draft. And when I say no worry about avg, its because in my 12 teamer the leading team in avg is around .278 and the bottom in the .260 area. Its a cat that is rarely dominated in our league.
and disregard my whole paragraph…. just saw the extra note in italics at bottom regarding format relevancy. my b.
His point is about maximizing value in the draft. While I agree with your approach, part of me is starting to wonder how wise it is to pass on said value…thereby giving it away to the competition.
Same reason I’ve started to consider a handful of tier-1 studs in round 3. By that point SO many teams have focused on offense that if I continue the trend (out of stubbornness) I’m giving away tremendous value. Of course, if a 2nd round target bat falls no way do i take a SP!
*tier-1 stud pitchers is what i meant.
Thanks for the explanation.
In SB category Hamilton in a class of his own, could (almost) guarantee that you top the league in SBs, so can see why you’d reach for him if you target sluggers lower down the draft.
I don’t disagree, but shouldn’t Dee be higher in redrafts? Same Sbs but from a middle IF position?
I valued Gordon not too far below, but think he faces much more playing time risk and risk of dropping to the bottom of the order. In a deeper league, replacement level between positions is closer so Gordon gets less of a boost by playing 2B than in a shallower league.
in a 10/12 teamer, would you flip the two based on scarcity?
Not sure, haven’t run those values yet. But you’ll find out soon when we publish our top 300! Those rankings will be based on 12 team leagues.
why is Gordon more of a risk to lose PT and move down in the order? He had a higher BA and OBP than Hamilton last season.
The Marlins have more 2B options than the Reds have CF options, and Gordon’s AVG and OBP were inflated by a .346 BABIP. Plus, the Marlins could shift Yelich back to lead off and bat Prado 2nd, moving Gordon to 8th. The Reds really have no other options to lead off.
One thing with single category guys like Hamilton and closers, they make great trade chips later. Hamilton could be worth 10 steals for a team in Sep which can be huge.
Pod, Todd, et al.: Just a heads up that when I tried to follow the link to the Mastersball site, my anti-virus software lit up like a Christmas tree about some bit of malware called “Black Hat SEO.”
Yeah, Todd is aware. I can assure you the site is fine. I temporarily turn off my anti-virus when I visit the site.
Only issue I see is Stanton’s HRs each come with a Hit, a Run, and an RBI. No such guarantees for Hamilton’s steals. To your point, though, my rating system had Dee Gordon’s steals as the highest value individual stat last year.
Yeah this is pretty huge. One HR helps in almost all offensive categories. One SB does not.
Not sure why people are still hesitant to value Speed. I had Rajai Davis and Hamilton last year, and guys that were in desperate need of steals wouldn’t give up a bench type player for these guys.
Pod you are ahead of the curve with this pick, I see why you made it and until people start valuing steals as a category, they will enjoy their 3-last place finishes.
I set up my NFBC rankings using Pod, Steamer, Steamer/Razzball, and PECOTA projections and a SGP valuation with 2014 NFBC DC results as the baseline values. Pod’s projections have Hamilton 8, Steamer 11, Steamer/Razzball 21, and Pecota 6. There’s certainly value there – more than Rizzo in the first.
In other words, I was a bit more surprised by the Rizzo pick than the Hamilton pick. I was impressed, Pod, that you stuck to your rankings with Hamilton. Hope it plays out for you.
Yeah wasn’t happy about Rizzo, but I did have him valued 11th. Was hoping someone else would have slipped to me.
Great article! Why do people “avoid drafting one-category guys.” The only reason I can think of is if, for example, Hamilton gets hurt (which, given the way he plays he could have more than an average chance of getting hurt) he will kill that category for you. Is that why people avoid it? If not, what do you think of my reason to avoid Hamilton?
Because they don’t play to win. They play to finish to finish in 3rd place.
Or have different ideas on how to win, whichever.
because no extra points awarded for winning SB by 40?
If all of your steals are concentrated in a single player, that increases your chances of ending up on the upper or lower extreme of the SB distribution. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your appetite for risk in that category.
Where does Revere fall then with a similarly entrenched position and a batting average 40 points higher than Hamilton’s ?
I think he was a third rounder, somewhere in the 40s. He’s worse in homers and RBI and will steal fewer bases. But the average offsets some of that.
Some of that? I would argue it offsets most of that. We’re talking about .40 points of batting average across a huge number of AB. Despite Steamer’s bizarre BABIP projection, Ben Revere is a .300 hitter.
I agree, Tyler – the more useful analysis would be a comparison with the value/draft# of other one dimensional speedsters than a contrast with the games best sluggers. Lets view the apples to apples. Ben Revere 50 picks later…
To me, the problem with drafting a one-cat performer that high is that it limits your strategy for not only the rest of the draft, but for the entire season. There may be some power left to build those cats back up, but all other speed-only guys have a very reduced value to your team after you invested heavily on a guy like Hamilton. Risk wise, you might win SB by 40, or Hamilton blows a hammy and you tank the category. Risk like that makes more sense in a deeper league but still, Ben Revere in the 7th…
In an auction league, I love drafting these types of players, and adjust values accordingly. You can implement certain strategies when drafting a player such as Hamilton, like bringing up players that steal bases and getting money off the table, and drafting all no speed guys.
I feel that specialists like Hamilton are much more difficult to value in H2H leagues. Sure, it is nice that he can single-handedly win you one category in most weeks, but it comes at the expense of being a drag on every other category. It becomes hard to justify spending more than a 8th or 9th round pick on him.
These guys really only have value in 5×5 Roto leagues. In H2H, its easier in general to win the majority of the offense stats by punting speed. In most points leagues I have seen, speed-only players are barely rosterable.
I’d argue the opposite–in H2H, in today’s low-offense environment, it’s much easier to load up on low-average category guys and win 4 of the 5 categories every week. High average comes at a premium–I can easily get guys like Chris Carter and Dee Gordon and Brian Dozier at a lower cost and consistently win the counting stats.
You’ve made some great points in this article. However, I’d like to comment on two things.
1. Doesn’t it make more sense to draft Revere potentially 6 rounds later and still get a leadoff guy with 40 plus steals. 2. By counting on 1 player to accumulate the majority of your steals, aren’t you putting you team at risk if he gets hurt vs drafting 4 or 5 players that will get you 20+ steals, therefore minimizing risk.
If I knew when Revere would be taken, it very we’ll could have. After getting sniped on Braun, I didn’t have enough time to think and plan things out. So rather than draft a more “acceptable”, but less valuable player at 20, I decided to just take the most valuable non-pitcher available.
I have Hamilton for $9 in a $260 10-team keeper league. It’s an OBP league, so my rankings had him a little lower, but his projected value came out to $19. I didn’t realize he would be so valuable but as you said, the stolen bases are really worth a lot. I’m keeping him and crossing my fingers that he becomes a better hitter.
Guys like Trout and McCutchen – 5 category guys – are going to be the first players off the board. I think it’s accepted that 5 category guys are the most valuable players in the game. This isn’t just because they help you in every single category, but also because they don’t hurt you in any category. You only have a limited number of roster spots to accumulate stats for the 5 categories.
So, if 5 category players are the most valuable, then it seems logically that inversely, a 1 category player should be less valuable than his contribution to that single category because he’s also hurting you in multiple categories, and using up a roster spot that could otherwise be used to accumulate stats in those categories by a more balanced player.
But if you poop your pants in a published experts draft you’d better be able to concoct a pretty good explanation.
If you poop your pants anywhere you’d better be able to concoct a pretty good explanation.
Billy Hamilton is a 2 category player, just saying.
Runs/Steals
Plus he MIGHT NOT kill you in two others, Rbi’s and average.
Yes he will hurt there and hurt in homers, but i’ve seen drastically worse on rosterable players.
Kind of stretching the topic but I like to look at combined R+RBI rather than just each stat individually to establish value. Using last years numbers, Hamilton achieved 120 R+RBI which was 50th overall. Ben Revere had 99(54th) ; Dee Gordon had 126(46th).
Those aren’t projections, and not saying Hamilton isn’t superior to the other two, but he’s in the same class as them.
Whoops, those were NL-only rankings but the point remains.
But they are separate categories Jiveballer. You can combine them, but they still count as two separate.
Regardless, for mixed leagues these are the (2014) guys who were within one Run of Hamilton. These represent the 61-78th overall ranks in Runs.
Name ABs Runs
Adam LaRoche 494 73
Ian Desmond 593 73
Jonathan Lucroy 585 73
C. Granderson 564 73
Starling Marte 495 73
Buster Posey 547 72
Marcell Ozuna 565 72
Dustin Pedroia 551 72
Billy Hamilton 563 72
Elvis Andrus 619 72
Kyle Seager 590 71
Marlon Byrd 591 71
Torii Hunter 549 71
Jacoby Ellsbury 575 71
Jay Bruce 493 71
Troy Tulowitzki 315 71
Austin Jackson 597 71
Ben Revere 601 71
He’s not a black hole at Runs Scored, but ~70th is not what I consider “contributing”. The kid has to really step forward from that .250/.292/.355 slash line to create actual value from the Runs Scored dept.
Last year there were 56 hitters who bested Hamilton in all four of the R/HR/RBI/AVG stats. Twelve of those hitters had 20 or more SB while another fifteen beyond that had between 10-19 SB. Only eight of those twenty seven “better” hitters were picked before Hamilton here.
How does all this work with the “don’t draft closers early” mantra. I mean by pure numbers closers always rank higher than their ADP spots. Overall, picking a pure speed guy that early– a genuine one cat guy who’s not a good hitter– puts a drafter in a tight spot. You can decide you have SB’s taken care of, but even that’s risky because if all your eggs are in one basket and he gets hurt, you suddenly have no speed. To me, taking Hamilton in the second is like taking Chapman in the 2nd. Too risky to take either that high in a deep league with smart owners.
Elite closers are actually four-category contributors that don’t drag your stats down in any category, so I’d much rather draft those guys in pretty much any format that counts saves.
So in a similar format would you draft Chapman in the mid second? Assuming Kershaw, Felix and Scherzer are gone?
The top closers are generally worth their ADP. In this particular draft though, the mid tier guys went far too early as there were several runs. Seemed like owners panicked not wanting to miss out on a closer. So they passed up on far better values to ensure they ended up with a closer or two. I didn’t get caught up in the closer panic, though still had to draft my 2 earlier than I had them valued at.
Really dont understand by BHam is going so far ahead of Dee, virtually the same but one is a scarce MIF.
Marlins are going to lead him off and play him fulltime, why trade for him then bench him?
If he’s hitting .215 in May they might bat him 8th?
where did you get your future sight machine?
Gordon is more risky in terms of playing time, lineup spot, and skill level.
why? I haven’t seen the explanation for this.
The Marlins gave up a lot for him, so they must value him quite a bit. Gordon was better than Hamilton in 3 categories last season.
Great points. Makes no sense why he is more of a risk than Hamilton when he was better in 3 of the 5 categories last year. He also got on base more, so why would he have the risk of moving down in the Marlins lineup?
I think you could have gotten Hamilton in the third
It’s possible, but that would have required me to draft a lower valued player than Hamilton, gambling he’d still be around in the 3rd. I didn’t have enough time to figure out if that would have been a gamble worth taking unfortunately.
I can understand making that call in the situation, but now that you have the ability to step back and reconsider, would you do it again?
It would have changed every pick after mine if I took an accepted guy at 20, so impossible to compare
But wasn’t it fairly clear upfront that the gamble was worth taking, because two fairly similar guys for this SB strategy in Gordon and Revere aren’t likely to also go before you could pick one of them.
Hey Pod,
There was an article on this subject by AJ Mass
http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=mlbdk2k10ellsbury
He uses the same logic as you but he decided to cut Ellsbury SB impact by 50% due to “diminishing returns” Why doesn’t the 50% cut in value apply to Hamilton? The better question may be do we need to cut the SB value by 50% in the first place?
Because it’s wrong. It only applies if you’ve already drafted Gordon and Revere. But then, and only then, is Hamilton’s value, to your team only, less than what your spreadsheet says. But dynamically changing values based on your current team construction is an entirely different issue.
Are you saying cutting Hamilton (or Ellsbury’s) SB value in half before the draft is wrong? Before the 50% cut in AJ Mass’s article Ellsbury would be the highest rank player followed by Crawford.
Then after you draft a Hamilton then the SB contribution value of a Gordon and Revere drop due to diminishing returns?
Of course it’s wrong. It’s a ridiculous idea. Again, his value would be lower only to your team due to diminishing returns. But then you’d have to adjust every player’s value dynamically to account for current roster construction. Dynamically changing values mid-draft tells you who the best pick at that time is, but it doesn’t actually mean these players are worth that amount for the full season.
Thanks. I didn’t think he was worth a top 20 pick in 10-12 team leagues.
Thanks alot. I remember reading that article years ago and that a predraft 50% reduction in SB value did not seem to make sense to me.
Is the reason that Hamilton is worth less in 10-12 team leagues because there are many cheap SB guys available late?
More SBs available on free agency. Guys like Gose, Pompey are 2 examples of potential free agents in shallow leagues.
Part of the problem in the HR vs SB debate is that SB are intrinsically a young player skill and a not-valuable-in-real-life skill. Speed demons with no other discernible skills frequently languish in the minors, and then get called up due to injuries, etc. That isn’t really the case with players who can give you a positive contribution when it comes to dingerz.
You’re more likely to find a 50 SB player on the wire than a 30 HR player.
There are a bunch of 30 HR players if you projected it per at bat with guys that get called up from the minors. How many times do you see a guy come up in the second half, get 200 at bats and swat 10-15 homers?
Really? Who was the last SB equivalent to JD Martinez? Or Chris Davis 2012?
If this were a points league and you were actually rewarded for each stolen base, perhaps this logic would be defensible. But like jiveball said, it doesn’t matter if you win SB by 40 or 1. You get 12 (or 15) points either way. SB isn’t a highly clustered category like runs, rbi, hr, and avg are. By that I mean that only five homers can be the difference between 5th and 1st place, whereas as many as fifty SB can be the difference between 5th and 1st place (and this is because, as you say, steals are so highly concentrated in guys like Dee Gordon, Altuve, and Hamilton. Whoever owns them dominates).
If you see it that way, in terms of marginal points in the standings and not category scarcity, a second round pick for Hamilton really doesn’t make sense.
This is the SGP logic, but ignores the fact that you have to actually get up to a last place number of steals and homers first before worrying about how many are needed to gain another point. Hamilton gets me to a last place total all by himself. It’s why SGP is a flawed valuation method.
Is SGP even worth using?
It’s better than no valuation system and just guessing. But I used SGP when I first started auctioning in 2001, and then switched to Zola a couple of years later after reading his arguments against SGP.
I read the article. It makes alot of sense. No more using SGP for me.
That doesn’t seem logical at all. Last place is variable. If I am going to be last place it could be with 10 steals all season. It doesn’t have to be with 60 steals all season and everyone else at at least 61. All you’ve done is set your own floor at 60. The point is that you can know going into the season that SB will be highly clustered up top. There simply aren’t enough stud speedsters to go around (especially in a 15 team league). It is simple game theory. If someone drafts Hamilton they absolutely need to dominate steals to make up for their failings in the four other categories they sacrificed for him. They can’t just sit back and let guys with Altuve and Gordon and Ellsbury (and Rajai Davis 15 rounds later) win steals. So they’re forced to sacrifice more in the other categories for decreasing marginal gains in SB. And if they don’t do that, drafting Hamilton was a waste of a pick in the first place because they could have very easily drafted Starling Marte or some other 35 sb stud and aimed midpack where marginal gains in sb are higher rather than top pack.
Huge shorts just doesn’t get it.
If you draft Hamilton for his steals, then you don’t have to worry so much about a guy that hits 20 hr’s and gets 15sbs. You can instead target a 30HR 5SB guy.
You just make up for it in the draft.
I don’t think that’s the best argument against the pick. There’s an underlying assumption that picking Hamilton allows you to benefit from flexibility to ignore speed elsewhere and draft players who are undervalued because they have no speed to their game. If you pick Hamilton you still want to win steals by 1, ideally, and you conduct your draft accordingly.
The main line of argument above is more relevant regarding the risk of having a category tied to a single player rather than distributing the risk. To this, I believe there is no right answer. Only a matter of preference and perhaps objective (win at all costs or just trying to cash, for instance).
Ideally you’d win steals by one but doing that is impossible to do in practice. If you have Hamilton and someone else has Gordon you’re practically neck and neck, no? So if you could collude you’d both lay off speed for the rest of the draft and focus on other cats. You’d each do what Pod is trying to do. But you’re not going to collude. That’s almost a fact. Someone is going to draft another speedster, or have an advantage because they drafted a five cat guy in a prior round. So what do you do in response? You could add to your speed by getting someone in the later rounds but guys in the later rounds with speed are all 1 category speedsters. They’re likely overkill and get you well beyond winning by just one steal, and they likewise force you to sacrifice even more points from each of the other FOUR CATEGORIES.
Or alternatively, you could keep on keeping on with your strategy and say, “nah I won’t get suckered into that.” At which point, you wouldn’t have enough steals to compete at the top in stolen bases and you’d be handicapped in avg, runs, rbi, and hr because you drafted Hamilton. So you shouldn’t have drafted Hamilton in the first place, and definitely not in the second round. Perhaps in the fifth of sixth.
Huge shorts if you draft Hamilton and someone else drafts Gordon you aren’t neck and neck unless your projections say otherwise.
Most people project Hamilton to outsteal Gordon
I think the way position scarcity and category scarcity get discussed and analyzed have some commonality. I know when I look at valuation systems that compare player values within a certain positions (catchers versus catchers) as opposed to versus the player population as a whole (even if the catcher v catcher is only a component of the final valuation, i.e. a positional adjustment) then catchers always appear more valuable than my experience tells me they will be in real life. Similarly, valuations that compare z-scores or VAR within a category always seem to produce larger values for steals and saves than qualitative analyses produce. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I feel like the math is not as straight forward as it seems. There’s something about players/stats with a very high standard deviations that lead to some warping of calculated values.
But maybe not. Maybe that’s just intuition clinging to a notion not supported by the math really. I feel like one avenue for exploring it would be through game theory. Wish I were smarter.
A couple points:
1) Sounds like Zola’s methodology isn’t too far from mine at Razzball. For this league format, I have Hamilton’s SB worth $25 and Stanton’s HR worth $15 – http://razzball.com/playerrater-preseason-espnmlb15/
2) Despite that, I have him at #36 with a 67/33 split – though I wouldn’t draft him there based on personal preference.
3) Steamer DOES NOT PROJECT PA/AB. The low PA/AB projection on FanGraphs is courtesy of the FanGraphs depth chart peeps. I rely on my own playing time estimates and agree with you that the FG # for Hamilton feels stingy.
Seems close enough and point 1 prob just points to a slight difference in projections, which results in the ranking difference in point 2. Ha, I should know this about the PT projections!
It’s because stolen bases are concentrated in a couple of the top guys and then fall off significantly. On the other hand, home runs are much more evenly distributed, so no one guy is going to earn an extreme amount from his contributions there.
Statistically speaking, that explanation speaks to a flaw in your valuation method (the fact that sbs are not normally distributed)
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying as well. The dollar value reflects the outlier standard deviation, not the actual contribution to team success.
Stolen bases have been undervalued for forever in fantasy. One stolen base is more valuable than one home run (ignoring the R, RBI(s), and avg that come with it). However, that doesn’t mean you should necessarily pay full value for SB. I cut values by 70%. You can still score near the top in steals by not paying full price for SB, and you can use the savings to buy extra power or whatever.
Why buy a $10 sandwich for $10 when it’s being sold for $7?
Your math disregards average and standard deviation. This is not accurate. Yes, his SB value is much much higher than Stantons HR total, but he has a negative value in RBI’s, HR’s, AVG, and zero value in Runs. His total value is about half of his SB value because of the damage he does to your other stats. Billy is a fine player in the Middle of the 5th round, but SB’s are only one category bro.
This is simply wrong. You are not understanding the concept of storing value with these single category players.
Using Pod’s numbers, take Stanton/Gordon composite with a Hamilton/A.Gonzalez composite (Adrian was drafted a pick before Dee).
Stanton/Gordon – 18.5 HR, 82.5 R, 65.0 RBI, 32.5 SB, .267 AVG
Hamilton/AGonz – 15.0 HR, 77.5 R, 74.5 RBI, 34.5 SB, .271 AVG
The margin isn’t huge but the Hamilton/Gonzalez composite is slightly better than the Stanton/Gordon composite. If your 5×5 valuations don’t reveal that, you really need to get a proper 5×5 valuation method, because yours is clearly flawed.
You are sitll using composite’s to create fake math.
Composites to create fake math? Explain what that means. It’s THE math. If you are referring to Pod’s projections, then take your issue up with his projections. He has to follow what his numbers say. Steamer’s projections are not that terribly different.
A guy you say should be going in the 5th round, creates a better composite with Adrian Gonzalez, than Giancarlo Stanton(drafted 6th) does with a similarly drafted player (Gordon).
You need to look at your valuation method. It’s severely flawed.
My 5×5 valuation method using steamer: Find the Average and Standard Deviation for each category for all players above replacement level. For instance, the average SB’s for a fantasy relevant hitter (top 216 in Ottoneu) is 9.55 and the SD is 6.66. The formula is (Unit-(AVG-(Std/2)))/Std. Using Billys 56 projected SB’s, the math would be (56-(9.55-(6.66/2)))/6.66 = 7.47. The high scores for all other categories are 4.75, 4.23, 4.89, and 4.29. So, yeah, his SB score is absolutely off the charts. But he gets negative scores acroos the board (significantly negative scores) and his final score is 3.89, which converts to $20 and not top 50. No matter who else is on your team, those negatives still exist.
I see the problem now. A few weeks ago, Steamer had a 667 PA, 610 AB, 8 HR, 75 R, 46 RBI, 68 SB line on Hamilton and Fangraphs since has adjusted their playing time down after I exported their figures and ran it through my formulas. Their downgrading his playing time would knock him a bit. You have their updated PT projections. Your numbers would make more sense then.
Pod’s playing time projections remain positive, so he has to go with them. His numbers are his numbers and he has to roll with them. With Pod’s numbers: Stanton+Gordon is 3.5 HRs better, 5 Runs better, 9.5 RBIs worse, 2 SBs worse and 4 points of average worse than Hamilton+AGonz.
Or forget that and go Stanton/…/Agonz/…/…/…/Revere
Or just ignore one dimensional speed guys altogether since, in a 15 teamer, not everyone will get a super elite SB man and you can achieve 8 or 9 points in the category without shooting yourself in the foot in any/all of the other offense categories.
Also, looks like Steamer recently downgraded Billys SB’s to 51. Not good bro.
Yeah it’s purely a playing time (and batting average) disagreement between the two projection systems, that is all.
That’s up for debate.
Yeah, i would never argue with someones projections because… who freaking knows. I dont.
Mike –
you wrote in response above:
“The Marlins have more 2B options than the Reds have CF options, and Gordon’s AVG and OBP were inflated by a .346 BABIP. Plus, the Marlins could shift Yelich back to lead off and bat Prado 2nd, moving Gordon to 8th. The Reds really have no other options to lead off.”
Then why did the Marlins pay such a steep price to get Gordon? Because those options are terrible. His .346 BABIP is repeatable due to his speed. His overall and 2nd half stats were better than Hamilton’s as well. I doubt the Marlins will move his speed to the 8 hole in their lineup.
Because the Marlins made a stupid decision to acquire him? Speed alone doesn’t lead to an inflated BABIP. There are far more factors involved like line drive rate, ability to avoid the pop-up, and power. Why do I care about his 2nd half stats? First half/second half splits have been proven to have no predictive value.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-wasnt-billy-hamilton-a-base-stealing-dynamo/
He still has some work to do learning the craft.
2 unrelated thoughts…
1) 60 SB feels like a floor. Because of his defense, Hamilton stays in the lineup, as you explained. Does he increase his attempts with more confidence in his 2nd season? Seems like there’s a 20% chance of getting 80+ SBs, and 80+ seems more likely than <40.
2) in these experts leagues, I'm guessing not much trading. And you're trying to win for bragging rights, not finish 2nd. So grabbing a few guys with more variance in their expected production might be wise?
I would agree with point 1, though my value is strictly based on my projected SB total.
I’m not sure how trade happy a typical non-expert league is, but there is trading. Not a lot, but there is. Not that different than my home league I commish, but that league isn’t too trade crazy either. But yeah, no one even knows who finishes 2nd, so it’s go for 1st or bust.
I took him at wheel in 4th round (pick 45) and am happy. Another owner had taken Altuve 7th and a different one has dee gordon at pick 36. I figure its a three man race for SB now and I got the upper hand while still managing to grab a SP and Rizzo along with Dozier for upside and fills 2B. Any thoughts where to go from here? I have a lot of targets in mid rounds for power.
Yeah, this didn’t turn out so well, did it?