The Increasing Popularity of Deep Dynasty Leagues
Deep dynasty leagues are becoming increasingly popular. Today, I’d like to talk about my experiences with the format, things to look for when joining a league, and what this means for the fantasy baseball industry.
Let’s start by defining a “deep” dynasty league. This is a flexible concept. In a recent poll, I said the following: “Let’s define “deep” as any mixed league that rosters 700 or more players leaguewide or any AL/NL Only with 350 or more players. At least half of players are kept.”
Again, the exact definition can vary. What matters is that the league operates on a completely different level than the most common fantasy formats. Those are 12-team redraft with roto or head-to-head scoring. There are also dynasty leagues with similar dynamics to these more common formats. Participants in these leagues can use existing resources for redraft leagues with a little mental tinkering. The norms of the industry still apply in a general sense even if there are some specific quirks.
By the way, here is the aforementioned poll results:
Do you play in a deep dynasty league?
Let's define "deep" as any mixed league that rosters 700 or more players leaguewide or any AL/NL Only with 350 or more players. At least half of players are kept.
You Aren't a FanGraphs MemberIt looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed. We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member. 1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other. 2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off. 3. Dark mode and Classic mode! 4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them. 5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects. 6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.) 7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only. 8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO. 9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members. 10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features! We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it. In case you didn't read all that, here's the short version. Membership includes:✓Ad-free browsing✓Unlimited FanGraphs & RotoGraphs articles✓Historical & platoon projections✓Leaderboard & player-page stat heatmaps✓One-click data exports✓Customizable player-page dashboards✓Dark & Classic site modes✓Weekly Members-only mailbag✓FanGraphs Walk-Off, your year in review✓Optional homepage photo removal✓Gift articles to non-membersChoice #2 is: I play in a dynasty league, but it's not that deep
— Brad Johnson (@BaseballATeam) January 7, 2019
A little over a third of those polled (in an admittedly biased sample) already play in deep dynasty leagues. Only a quarter of voters don’t play any sort of dynasty league. This almost certainly is a sharp increase compared to five years ago.
Part of the growing popularity is that there are now two good platforms for dynasty leagues – CBS and FanTrax. The former has a fee while the latter can be free as long as you don’t use complex settings. Ottoneu is a popular dynasty-lite offering – and I suspect a big reason dynasty participation is presumably growing.
My Experiences
Dynasty leagues can be brittle without the right mix of participants. As such, it’s difficult to just wander into the wilderness and find a healthy league. We’ve all had our share of 12-team leagues where half the owners simply don’t put in the time or lack the talent to compete. Now imagine the difficulty of finding 20 or more owners with the aptitude to run a franchise. Not only do they have to contend, they also have to balance long term goals.
Some easy ways to make deep dynasties easier are to set weekly lineups with weekly limits on waiver wire moves. As always, it helps with owner engagement to charge an entry fee and offer a cash prize for winning.
One “trick” is to strongly encourage co-management. When two managers work together on one team, it changes the dynamic of team ownership. They have a responsibility to each other to actually manage the team and jointly participate in decisions. Additionally, the saying “two heads are better than one” can apply. If one owner gets a wacky idea, the other can step in to quash it.
For Newbies
My best advice for fantasy owners who want to join their first deep dynasty league: sign up through an industry resource. For example, Justin Mason’s site put together a 30-team dynasty league earlier this winter with a mix of readers and writers. Patrons of my BaseballATeam page are currently concluding a 25-team league (#DTBNL on twitter). These opportunities, while rare, offer a soft landing spot for the uninitiated.
In general, you should look for leagues with very simple rules. The more complexity, the more likely a league will fail. Or you might simply find yourself hopelessly behind because you misinterpreted the effect of a certain rule. In general, you have a 5×5 roto (AVG or OBP) with a normal-looking active roster and simple keeper mechanisms – i.e. roster 45, keep 28, no cost. Save those leagues with complicated contracts for when you’ve mastered the basics of dynasty play.
Dynasty leagues are all about balancing present and future value. It’s tempting to go whole hog on prospects on the premise that you’ll dominate in the future. I strongly advise against such a course of action. While there is something to be said for preferring elite prospects over an older stud like Joey Votto, it’s very easy to get lost under a sea of toolsy 17-year-olds. If you’re not experienced swimming in such seas, you’ll probably drown.
If joining an existing league, try to find a roster that isn’t lost in the prospect weeds. Rather than aggressively jumping in and reshaping the roster, take some time to explore ways to make it competitive. It’s very common to see new owners rush to immediately sell all of their assets for prospect. This is almost always a mistake. Take your time.
Industry Fallout
Already, the number of resources for dynasty players is rapidly growing. The market knows that demand is increasing. Our own McDongenhagen is my favorite resource for scouting takes, and the FanGraphs player pages are obviously a valuable resource for statistical scouting.
FanTrax’s focus on offering a quality dynasty platform is probably the number one reason it has gained such a foothold in the market. Yahoo is still the gold standard for traditional redraft leagues, but they refuse to support anything beyond the most shallow of keeper scenarios. Dozens of players like Josh James aren’t even in the player pool until after they debut. FanTrax errs on the other side with virtually every eligible player in the pool.
Going forward, expect more sites catering to the deepest corners of fantasy baseball. At first, we’ll likely see an explosion of options with a few emerging from the chaos as go-to resources.
You can follow me on twitter @BaseballATeam
You forgot to mention that CBS does dynasty leagues well, even if their player addition timing leaves a bit to be desired. Their app is also superior to FanTrax’s at this point.
Check the paragraph before “My Experiences.” Also skip the FanTrax app and just use their website. It’s fine.
Ah yes, there it is re: CBS. Good mention, my bad. Regarding the app, not having a good one kept my league from moving to FanTrax because some managers use the app quite a bit to do their business. If one is to start a dynasty league, one will definitely need to ask the owners whether or not they’re app people or website people.
What I meant is that the website IS the app now. Just use your phone browser to conduct league business.
Agree that the Fantrax site is not really up to standard.
Fantrax site is far superior to CBS, its the App that has issues
One more vote that FanTrax sucks. I would rather pay my share of a league fee for CBS. You get what you pay for.
Not sure why ottoneu is not mentioned more on this site.
I have been commissioner and started 16 team and 20 team dynasty leagues. My recommendation to anyone looking to start one of these leagues is as follows:
1. Keep it simple as Brad mentions – 5×5 or 6×6 with easy keeper rules is best (for free leagues)
2. Look for experienced players to begin with and try to do some manager screening even it if takes time – easier said than done
3. Most importantly…build to dynasty over time. The 16 team h2h Dynasty league I still commish after 10 years has 30 man rosters NOW, but the first year it was keep 3-5, second year it was keep 5-7, third year it was keep 7-10, fifth year it was keep 10-15 and then keep min 25 after. Lower keepers in the initial years allows you to screen out bad managers that slip through the cracks before they completely decimate a dynasty league with bad decisions. Far better to take over a rough team with 5-7 keepers than a rough team with 25 min keepers. The flexibility in keepers also allows managers to make decisions. If you have a really strong team, keep 7. If you pick up a weak team, keep 5 and you get to pick two players first before the regular draft. This also helps those bad teams pick up better players quicker.
And have a constitution.
Yeah I figured that out, just finished a 16 tm, 60 rd fantrax slow draft and left because guys like Tebow, Plouffe, Sogard, and way too many other guys like that were picked onto the team’s minors rosters. 350 minor league players were picked and all 25 or so of my minors players were ranked inside my top 120 which was crazy. That’s a really good idea by increasing keepers and doing manager screening.
great article on deep dynasty leagues! I am the founder of such a league. We are currently in our 6th year. We have 10 teams that carry 45 man active rosters(15 hitters/15 pitchers/15 bench slots) and 35 man farm systems (set to expand to 45 next year). We quite possibly will have 1-2 openings after the 2019 season concludes. If you have interest in finding out more info about my league, or want to be considered for potential future openings please email me: kg2126@yahoo.com
As a commish or participant in three 30 team leagues, I think the best advice in the article is – “Rather than aggressively jumping in and reshaping the roster, take some time to explore ways to make it competitive. It’s very common to see new owners rush to immediately sell all of their assets for prospect. This is almost always a mistake. Take your time”
The vultures hover quickly over new meat in these formats. We actually have a no trade rule for new owners or in some leagues we redraft the new teams from the abandoned team’s player pool. The effect is that new owners end up in the league for a few weeks before they get full control to trade. You still see teams sell too quickly (even veteran owners do this), but at least it puts the breaks on most of the really bad deals.
The counter argument is that some fresh meat is poisoned and some vultures die. The prime assumption is that the new guy needs protection. What the new guy really wants is that heady rush where the other owners are actively wanting to trade. That’s his opportunity to make needed roster changes. Good trades help everyone. Why not make the question…”this is your roster. Are you going to blow it up?”….. a part of your vetting process.? Personally, I don’t have interest in a league that plans to restrict my activity. My team, dude. Let me run my team as I see fit.
Brad, I appreciate the article, but I would ask that you please refrain from using the word “Wander” in future articles, as you did here (“As such, it’s difficult to just wander into the wilderness and find a healthy league.”). You inadvertently triggered a Google alert for me and I was very let down to discover this piece is sadly not about Wander Javier, the elite Twins prospect.
🤦🏻♂️
Great comment! You really added to the discussion with your very original, funny and informative opinion.
-Nobody ever
I didn’t laugh, but I was also not bothered. Why be hostile towards someone who is participating? Not every joke is funny, but his next comment might be hilarious. Meantime, it costs nothing to be nice.
Same guy same joke, pepper. It stopped being cute months ago.
I don’t read these pages daily and I liked it. I read just the right amount to appreciate the joke I guess. This community needs to not gang up on people like it does. I can’t imagine how active I would be if I posted about every comment I found annoying.
Even so, I don’t see the need for personal attacks.
Yeah I’d agree if it were even the second or third time but the joke has been going on for months and has been repeated over and over and over again to the point where it’s just annoying
Thank you for your kindness, pepper69fun.
I liked it.
Any advice on finding a good, active deep league with fully engaged managers? The ones I find always seem to find always have wacky settings and just a few indifferent managers can imbalance a deep league. Looking to take over a bad team in a good league.
Before Vox went and screwed it up by pulling the plug, Minorleagueball.com had a great league finder section where people either seeking a new league or trying to fill openings in an existing league could post openings. There are also some Reddit feeds where people post openings. As an assistant commish in three thirty team, 55 man roster or higher leagues, and a member of a fourth, it is a definite chore to keep our league stocked with talent, but word of mouth and active owners make it an addictively fun format to play.
The leagues I joined there were generally subpar, but that was years ago. I think that is the thing about finding a dynasty league – you never know what you are getting into and the good ones are already full. Its like grabbing a bit at a hole in the wall… personally I am in a few good dynasties and it is largely the same group of owners. I had to churn through a few before I found these owners. We do have wacky settings though! Perhaps ask a good fellow owner in a current dynasty what they know?
We actually have an open team right now in a 30-team league with 50-man rosters. Here’s a link, if you’d like to take a look: http://pbfantasybaseball.proboards.com/ . We’re in year 8 or something like that, and still going quite strong. And the available team (The Red Sox) definitely qualifies as bad.
Rotoworld Forums has a League Finder board. I use it regularly to fill my three 30 teamers.
Great article! I really enjoy Fantrax leagues since they have such a deep player pool, perfect for dynasty. The only problem I have with it is that I have joined a couple publicly available free dynasty leagues, and a few owners don’t properly value prospects which is a problem. It’s kinda frustrating picking a top 100 prospect then seeing other guys consistently making picks along the lines of Trevor Plouffe or Eric Sogard for their minors. It’s pretty hard to find a league with 16+ owners who know enough to adequately draft 20+ prospects onto their roster. Trying to find a competitive fantrax dynasty that is deep and has competitive and knowledgeable owners is tough. If anyone is in a competitive league and looking for an additional competitive owner email me at craigfantrax AT gmail DOT com.
Let’s toss a plug out there: We have one, maybe 2 currently open teams in a 30-team league with 50-player rosters. League link is here: http://pbfantasybaseball.proboards.com/ . If you’re a dedicted team manager and want to take the plunge, or just join another league, we’d love to have you.
This may be too extreme for many, but my 35-year-old dynasty league (yes, faxes were involved originally) survives because it’s low effort. Or shall I say, the effort is entirely concentrated in drafting and trading. No lineups (best players at the end of season count for each team) and no waiver pickups. And no salaries — all lifetime contracts. Yes, a lot of sitting back and watching, but it ends up producing a lot of drama leading to the critically important draft and trade deadline.
Prob. too low-key for most, but I think it fits in with the long-term mentality of dynasty to not micromanage the day to day operations (setting lineups and cycling through waiver fodder).
Anyway, just a thought if you have busy but committed owners and want to get away from some of the daily/weekly maintenance required to be competitive in most leagues.
I like the idea. I may even write that up as a custom league.
I’m in three of them currently, and honestly I can’t see ever going back to shallow leagues. I started playing fantasy baseball when Glenn Waggoner put out his book in 1984, and while I enjoyed 12-team 4×4 roto (and later 5×5 roto) for decades, salary cap deep dynasty is now the only version for me.
My 30-teamer has roughly 2200 players rostered and we average 350 trades a year. It’s easily the most exciting league I have ever been a part of.
I’m also in my 4th year of a rebuild in a decade-plus 28-teamer where roughly 1400 players are rostered, and just joined another 28-teamer with around 1400 players rostered. That one I am likely to compete this year, but in many ways it won’t be as fun as the rebuilding team.
The biggest administrative difference between deep dynasty and shallow leagues is that with 28-30 owners, no one can reasonably expect to win more than two titles in their lifetime. And while you can do a 2-3 year rebuild in a shallow league, a full rebuild in a deep dynasty can be a 5-6 year proposition. Owners have to have confidence the league will still be around by the time their team is successful. You need a constitution in place that protects parity for the long haul, rather than allowing a few franchises to become juggernauts and a third of the league to be tombstones. In a 12-team league, half the league might be in the World Series at least once in a 4-year stretch. In a 30-teamer, the guy toiling in 22nd place hoping to get a wild card in 2023 needs to still be having fun. And he needs to feel like the rules in place will prevent this year’s Series participants from being there the next 8 years in a row.
An interesting aspect of the dynasty league is the volatility of the league itself. When joining a new league I always put together a pretty win-now squad because the league might just not last – or it might be too inactive to be any fun. I have been the guy that builds a deep roster full of future talent just to have the league fall apart – its the worst!
I think patience is paramount. I started an 18 team, keep 20/25 dynasty years ago, with one big catch (we all started with a real MLB roster), some defensive stat categories, etc. The first couple years were a learning curve in terms of carefully defining the rulebook and weeding out the dud managers, but most were on board for the ride and now we have a strong group who are in it for the long haul and each of them say it’s by far their favorite league. By setting clear expectations, you can try all kinds of unique settings and league structures – even with complete strangers.
Several laments here about the difficulty of finding good owners / advertising leagues and in some cases how to find them. Could Fangraphs provide a forum for this? Seems like a self-selecting community of the like-minded.
It could be as simple as a Rotographs post (similar to this one) with people advertising in the comments.
Like this? https://fantasy.fangraphs.com/looking-to-fill-your-league-or-join-a-league-click-here-2018-edition/
Precisely! Thanks.
Will there be another post like that soon?
Would be more helpful though if there’s a stickied post/section or the like that we can visit now and then throughout the offseason…
Thanks!