The Change — Fifth Starter Extravaganza
Yesterday, a trio of fifth starters were announced. They are all worthy of different levels of excitement, but Vincent Velasquez, Aaron Sanchez, and Nate Karns all won jobs, and now we’re all scrambling to re-rank them based on this new information. Here’s the thing, though — don’t move them very far.
The announcement is nice, because it’s like the closer’s role. You either have the fifth starter’s spot, or you don’t, and if you don’t, the innings are hard to find. But you might be surprised how little those announcements may have meant.
The fifth-most prolific starter on all 30 teams last year averaged 97 innings. That’s better than the 66 innings the sixth slot got, but it’s probably less than we are faithcasting for Velasquez and Sanchez and Karns right now. Of course, they can now pitch all year and end up as something better than the fifth-best starters on their teams, but if they truly are their teams’ fifth-best, they’re going to be lucky to amass much more than 100 innings this year.
For Velasquez, innings might have been an issue anyway. He only threw 88 innings last year, and 124.2 in 2013, his longest season. I’ve seen a loose 20% increase thrown around by teams, and 20% more than last year would be 106 innings. 20% more than his biggest season would be 150. As much as we love double Vs, we had to put our projection in between those two numbers, especially given what we know about fifth starters.
The Phillies will keep his innings down by skipping the fifth starter’s spot, giving him a long break around All Star week, and then perhaps putting him back in the bullpen as a stretch guy late in the season. That’s a shame, given he has the most even arsenal of this group. He’s only thrown 70 or 80 changeups, but by whiff rate (11%, average is around 13%) and movement, it looks like it can be an average pitch.
Put that up against a 94 mph rising fastball and a power curve (top 20 among starters in velocity), and you’ve got an arsenal. He has 16 strikeouts in 14 innings this spring, and a litany of great strikeout rates behind him in the minor leagues.
Nate Karns is right there with him, and it’s hard to really parse the two. Like Velasquez, Karns starts with good fastball velocity and a high-velocity curve. Karns made a lot of strides with his changeup over the course of last year and ended the year with a 16% whiff rate on that changeup, and better than average movement. You’d put him ahead of Velasquez easily, except that he’s 28 to the Phils’ 23 and has a longer history of having trouble piling up innings — he’s never topped 157.1 in a season.
But with the Mariners trying to put some wins together, and James Paxton looking like he’s in need of really finding something, this could be a decent innings year for Karns. Give him the floor, and Velasquez the ceiling.
Does Aaron Sanchez get a tier of his own? He’s ahead of guys like Shane Greene — who might only get the job until Daniel Norris returns from his back issue — and the veterans like C.C. Sabathia and Ricky Nolasco, who both may have one foot in baseball’s grave. Sanchez is still on the way up, at least.
The narrative on Sanchez is that he doesn’t have a change. But, for his career, even in just 99 thrown, the change has the highest whiff rate of his pitches. By movement, it’s got above average fade and drop, although it’s only one more inch fade than his sinker, so it’s not amazing. It only goes six miles per hour slower than his sinker, so that might be the problem, but it doesn’t even have a terrible strike percentage. 19 strikeouts in 20 innings make him a close third and keep him in the best tier of new fifth starters.
Adam Conley looks like he’s got the fifth job, since Justin Nicolino was sent down. I’d move him up ahead of Sanchez into the Karns/Velasquez grouping because he’s up to averaging 94 mph this spring from 91 last year, the kind of velocity we always thought he could have, and he has the best park and league combination of the group. The move up is one part because he’s holding this new velocity and one part that he seems to have the job in Florida. He’s got a great changeup and we’ll have to see how the slider does.
Lower down on the totem pole of new fifth starters are pitchers where the talent is a little more debatable, but the opportunity is now there.
Let’s give Kris Medlen the title of Best Veteran New Fifth Starter. Sabathia’s velocity is gone and never coming back — he’s sitting 87 this spring, soooooo — and Ricky Nolasco is Ricky Nolasco at this point. Medlen’s projections aren’t great, but it was his first season back after a second Tommy John and a full year out of baseball. He’s in front of the only team to be projected as a positive defensively at every position, and his velocity has been up at 92 this spring.
Because he’s a veteran, and his upside isn’t the same as our first trio, I wouldn’t push Medlen much past 80th in the rankings if I did them today. The first group is clustered around 73-76. These next two are still well into the 100s.
Because, though I love the movement numbers from Kendall Graveman’s pitches, and did trade Tyler Naquin for him in AL-LABR because I need pitching (a fact that will probably only hurt more as the season progresses, given the injuries in that outfield and Naquin’s spring play), the pitcher just hasn’t been able to corral that movement for good outcomes yet. He’s got elite-level sink on the changeup, tons of horizontal movement on the curve, and good ball rates on all of his pitches… and yet only the cutter has plus whiff rates, and too much of his repertoire seems to be focused on getting ground balls. He’s a deep leaguer.
And yes, it looks like Robbie Ray is happening in Arizona. He’s sitting 93.9 in spring, which is amazing for a lefty. His slider got really good results last year. His changeup still sucks, moving less than his sinker and lacking a great velocity differential. I remain a poo-pooer on Ray.
Steven Wright (knuckleballer) and A.J. Griffin (homeritis in a homer-happy park, plus injuries) have too many questions to make them great pickups right now. And remember how few innings you are likely to get out of Juan Nicasio, Nick Tropeano, or Cody Anderson should they get picked up as fifth starters later this spring.
About 100, most likely. So add ’em, stash ’em, but don’t spend on ’em.
With a phone full of pictures of pitchers' fingers, strange beers, and his two toddler sons, Eno Sarris can be found at the ballpark or a brewery most days. Read him here, writing about the A's or Giants at The Athletic, or about beer at October. Follow him on Twitter @enosarris if you can handle the sandwiches and inanity.
Like you said in the podcast, that’s the 5th starter “retrospectively” who threw 97 ip on average. As you pointed out, what these guys have here is opportunity in the rotation. Injuries and inferior play from rotation-mates can bump them up. Rookies like VV will be limited no matter what, but I can see Conley and Karns perhaps being #3 or #4 on their staff by season’s end.
I think a lot of these guys are fifth starters because of lack of track record or established innings, though, so I think it’s useful to remember that we shouldn’t just give them 180 IP now that they are in the rotation.
Already, Graveman got bumped to #4. Jesse Hahn demoted 🙁
And for Felix Dubront? Yuk
How would you rank V.V., Karns, and Sanchez?
In that order?
Karns (IP), VV, Sanchez.
i really think the broad average of all 5th starter innings is less meaningful than our evaluations of how good these individual guys are at pitching. like, the 5th starters we most care about are going to be the ones we think are the best pitchers, which (unless we’re completely wrong) makes them the most likely to ratchet themselves up to #3 in their team’s rotation and get as many innings as they can carry. and indeed, i’ve seen things play out that way many times. which means i basically don’t care about the 97-innings stat.
like, kyle lohse’s 2015 doesn’t affect my attitude towards nate karns’ 2016, you know what i’m saying
tried to do both
sure. i suppose it’s probably still somewhat relevant with the young guys where teams may want to use the 5 slot start-skipping to artificially keep their innings down no matter how good they are
Tropeano was cut: https://twitter.com/Alden_Gonzalez/status/714623277805645824
Yeah, but he’s got a weak rotation ahead of him. Heaney doesn’t miss bats, so a could be a BABIP victim, Weaver is begging for a long DL stint, and Shoemaker has had issues with HRs….there is definitely room for Tropeano sooner rather than later.
I’m taking BFBC as the best (and most lovable) 5th starter in MLB, at least ’til Wheeler is back
“5th most prolific starter” is awfully different from “5th starter out of spring training”. Seems pretty strange to conflate the two.
Except that the reason that fifth starters have fewer innings is because they were awarded fifth starter status from the beginning and got skipped a ton.
that sounds reasonable, but is it actually true? What percentage of “5th most prolific starters” started the year in the 5th spot in the rotation? Seems straightforward enough to check and not assume.
It is, however, not straightforward to check. Teams sometimes use the fifth spot to skip a hurting front of rotation guy, and since they get skipped and nowhere do teams announce their rotation slots 1-5 in a way that creates data we can search… yes. I could have tried to go through each of the 30 rotations. But I think it’s okay to assume that some of the reason that the fifth most prolific starters started as fifth starters and that’s why they were down in innings.
Mostly, that stat was stated for the reason I said though: just because a guy is named the fifth starter doesn’t mean he’s sitting in 180 innings.
Eno,
How would you rank VV, Nicasio and Anderson? Do you think the latter two keep/get rotation spots? How many innings you see the latter two getting if they get the jobs?
Rather have VV with the lower innings even.
I view this 5th starter wins as a marriage of opportunity and talent. Jered Weaver and Matt Garza may be #3 starters, but their talent star is starting to fade, and they really have zero shot of being a difference-maker on anyone’s fantasy team. Whereas guys like Velasquez, Karns, and Ray are have demonstrated talent and just need the opportunity to either blow-up or fizzle out. The likelihood is fizzle out, but if you do find the guy that’s ready to make the turn, the impact on your team will be significant.
Hey Eno-
How do you feel about another “5th starter” type – Jarred Cosart?
what on earth do you like about Cosart?!
I wouldn’t write-off Anderson just yet.. it’s looking like he may actually be the 4th starter possibly in CLE with Tomlin or Bauer going to the pen (probably Tomlin after Bauer’s start today). Scouts are raving about Anderson’s 3.5 MPH velocity uptick… and your colleague has compared his repertoire to Matt Harvey’s – http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/cody-anderson-looks-like-matt-harvey/
I like Anderson as a sleeper for mixed league value this season
yeah i was just comin’ here to post about this
anderson’s also been working on a new spike curve, between that and the velo boost… hmm
Except he’s in a competition for the 5th starter and managed to give up 11 earned in 18 IP. A guy competing a job is about the only situation where spring stats matter….and his suck. I like the potential, but so far he looks like a big fastball without much else.
No it looks like he has the 4th spot and Bauer and Tomlin are competing for the 5th spot. Check news sites. ERs don’t matter much in Spring Training…he’s fine
RPG006: I’m intrigued by Anderson. Harvey comparison seems a stretch, if for no other reason that he hasn’t learned to mix his pitches yet. Regardless, big bodied pitcher with improved conditioning/flexibility, velocity, pitch mix, as well as ability to step up to 180+ innings, having gone 160 last year.
I’m in a league with 5 SP and 2 RP,
I’m debating about dropping Betances for VV because I only have two RP spots and already have A. Miller, D. Storen, W. Davis, and M. Melancon. I hate to loss those ratio’s or let some other schlub grab him but he’s a dead body on my bench in a basic 5×5 and with VVI could get a start or two from him which may or may not help?
I drafted Karns as my last pick-
I assume the Storen decision was made for you this morning, but I’m curious, are there misc “P” slots? If not, you’re already wasting roster spots by having 4 RPs for 2 RP slots, no point in wasting a 5th.
Also, the ratios Betances gives you have much less impact on your bottom line than you think. He’s beloved on this site, but his value is minimal and volatile– without saves you basically need him to be amazing this year just to be rosterable, if he has a couple bad outings and finishes the year with a 3+ ERA or something then you’ve gained almost no positive value from his roster spot.
Yeah, except for the 120+ Ks he’s likely to give you…
Technically, I consider Mike Leake to be the Best Veteran New Fifth Starter, as he wasn’t a 5th starter last year, but he is the (relatively) weakest of the Cardinals’ exceptionally deep rotation right now. It’s just that he was handed the job upon signing with the Redbirds unlike most of the 5th starters out there.
I noticed you spent big on Cody Anderson in AM League LABR… I know about the knuckle curve and veto spike, but don’t know that there is any proven efficacy. Why were you comfortable in bidding to that price level. FWIW: I picked him up in my AM League Auction too, but was lucky enough to apparently be the only league member aware of his improvements – picked him up for $1. Love to hear your thoughts on this player,
THANKS!
Question above meant for Eno Sarris