Swapping Hitting For Pitching (And Vice Versa)
With the early part of the season past us, and almost 90% of the season left ahead, perhaps it’s time to talk strategy. You’ve drafted your squad and — even though April is a small sample — perhaps you have a clearer picture of your team, and its strengths and weaknesses. You may be out a shortstop thanks to an injury or two, or maybe you’ve suffered from too many Carlos Quentin-induced starting pitching injuries. You had a nice team to start, but now you’ve got a weakness either on the offensive side or in terms of pitching, and you’re ready to make a change.
Well, today I’d like to consider a few possible deals. Oftentimes, we look to trade from a position of strength to cover up a position of weakness. That’s what we’ll explore today: a couple of possible one-for-one (or similar) deals that might be a valuable swap of pitcher-for-hitter or vice versa. Perhaps that will help determine what a reasonable return might be from one perspective when swapping one side of your 5×5 team for another. Always, your mileage will vary based on you league and the population of trade partners available.
Trading a Hitter for a Pitcher
Let’s assume the following scenario: you went big on outfielders during your draft. In addition to the inspired drafting of Justin Upton, you snagged Matt Holliday in the fourth round, and have some strong plays lower on the depth chart in guys like Brett Gardner, Coco Crisp, Mike Morse, and you picked up Chris Davis on the wire. You’re feeling pretty great about your offensive situation, but your pitching is poor and you’d like to add another top-shelf starter. You decide that the eerily consistent Holliday is the guy to deal, so you can get high-end talent in return.
While Holliday isn’t yet off to a stellar start, ZiPS still projects him to finish the season as a four-win player … and most importantly, someone with 22 HR and more than 85 R and RBI — and his peripheral BB% and K% aren’t too far off his career numbers. Over the last few periods at Mock Draft Central, Holliday typically was drafted somewhere between 50-75 overall in mixed 5×5 drafts, somewhere between the fourth and sixth round. That sounds about right to me.
So what should you look for in a pitcher as a result? Personally, I’d look for a pitcher who sits with a slightly higher ADP than the hitter I’m giving up, but also take into account certain other considerations. There are more than a few pitchers who were taken later in drafts, such as Matt Harvey and Matt Moore, who are looking elite in the early goings, but they may be considered a little too hot to pull off an effective trade. In addition, other previously-valued pitchers like Zack Greinke and Jered Weaver may not be looking quite so hot these days, and you may not want to add these guys via trade given their recent injuries.
So let’s see … someone who’s sitting around Holliday’s average draft position, maybe a little higher, who another owner might be willing to pull the trigger on? How about Matt Cain? Cain’s another guy who tends to pop up in the fourth or fifth round of mixed drafts, and looks to be similar to Holliday in a lot of ways — he’s consistent, not very flashy, but incredibly valuable to a contending fantasy squad. In addition, Cain’s off to a bit of a slow start this year as well, getting knocked around in his four outings this season to the tune of a 7.15 ERA. At the same time, Cain’s underlying numbers show that he’s probably not too far off from his typical performance. Given the fact that the strikeouts and walks are coming with the same frequency that they have in previous years, and that he’s really suffering from HR-and-LOB-itis, I wouldn’t discount a return to his usual solid form. Targeting Matt Cain (or perhaps teammate Madison Bumgarner, or Adam Wainwright) might be the right level of ask when dealing a player like Holliday (or Shin-Soo Choo, or Mark Trumbo).
Trading a Pitcher for a Hitter
So let’s look at the other side, a bit further down. In this hypothetical, your team has stacks on stacks of pitching: you drafted Matt Harvey late, and he’s been looking phenomenal, and you picked up Felix Hernandez, Yu Darvish, and A.J. Burnett during your draft. You feel extremely confident in your pitching, so you decide that Mat Latos is expendable in a deal for some additional hitting talent.
Latos is rolling to start the season, despite not yet earning a win for the Cincinnati Reds. With nearly 27.6% of opposing hitters striking out against him, Latos would be a solid add for anyone looking to bolster their rotation for 2013, and playing for the Reds means that he has as good of a chance at adding pitcher wins as anyone else. With an average draft position somewhere around 110-125, he’s one of those guys that usually comes out in the rounds 9-12 of a draft depending on who’s in your league. If it were me, I’d search out someone around the same, or slightly lower in terms of ADP, in order to get a deal done for a strong bat.
If it were me, I’d search out a player with a high potential for reward rather than low-impact, high-probability. If there’s a way to pry a Chase Utley loose (which there might not be, he’s pretty great), I’d search out someone like him. While Utley is unlikely to provide consistent value all season long with his health issues, he’s still so great of a hitter when healthy (all five categories are looking pretty good these days, with three steals already to supplement his potent bat) that he’d be worth starting in any league.
However, if Utley is too rich for a trade partner’s blood, I’d consider looking into a player like Detroit’s Torii Hunter. Hunter had the best offensive season of his career last season, but it looked like an abberation — a late-career last hurrah before slinking off into the dark night of decline. But Hunter’s started blazing hot this season, and while we can’t expect a wRC+ of 178 to hold up, and we shouldn’t expect anything even close, he’s still a solid fantasy outfielder. His batting average can be solid, especially if he can maintain anything close to a high BABIP, he provides a bit of pop, and he hits in a lineup that could mean loads of runs and RBI opportunities.
Though there are much more exciting names out there on the trade market, Hunter might be the best trade target available when dealing a pitcher of Latos’s caliber. I’d also consider targeting players with flaws, like Utley, perhaps along the lines of Pablo Sandoval or Nick Swisher — players who can provide value similar to Latos, but might be a little less desirable than elite talents.
In the end, dealing pitching for hitting can be tough, but I feel like there are a few basic maxims that can help someone make the right moves. First, I tend to value hitting slightly more than pitching, so I’d always expect to receive slightly less “value” when adding a pitcher, partially due to the inherent risk. In addition, remember that if you’re initiating a deal, and trying to move from a position of strength to fill a position of weakness, you may be dealing at a disadvantage and receiving less “value” in that regards as well. At the same time, you can only win your categories by a certain amount in roto — and dominance in one category (or several) can’t win you a championship in a vacuum. I wouldn’t be afraid to make a deal from one side to another, but I’d manage my expectations and target players with upside.
Bryan values positional flexibilty and a good 12-6 curveball. He's the Lead Writer at Beyond the Box Score. Catch him on Twitter at @bgrosnick.
It’s article is very appropriate for me. I just traded $9 Jaime Garcia in our ottoneu league for $15 Nick Swisher. My other pitching is Lester, Scherzer, Parker, Anibal Sanchez, CJ Wilson, Lynn and Niese.
Is it a LWTS otto league? Because if it is — I really like that deal for you. Actually, I probably like it in every league.
Two days ago I traded cliff lee and ryu for heyward and morrow. Now heyward just had an appendectomy.
Do’h.
That’s not the worst deal — although I’d expect Heyward to see a bit of a power hit, and he’ll obviously miss time, I still really like him. Depending on who my hitters are, I might rather have Lee / Ryu now, but getting Heyward is always a good idea.
Thanks for the reply. Heyward is also eligible to be kept in the 12th round next year in our draft. There was also some FAAB given to me in the deal (around 7% worth).
Considering the potential future keeper ramifications, as well dealing from what I believe is a strength with my pitching, I couldn’t really pass up this deal at the time. Just a freak occurrence shortly thereafter is all.
I know other players have had appendectomies in the past, and some like Dunn, blamed their performance on coming back too quickly. Hopefully this won’t have a negative long-term effect on Heyward.
I am a bit concerned. Although the time off could help Heyward bounce back from a poor start, and heal any small aches and pains that he was feeling prior to this surgery.
If it’s a keeper league, like you say, then I like the deal even more on your end. And I think you’re managing expectations appropriately.
just traded Segura/Hafner for Utley (my 2b Hill is on DL and I was starting Betancourt) and then just traded Jim Johnson/Milone for Prado and Shelby Miller. Thoughts anybody?
I love your side on both deals. Utley looks like he is back to previous form, and even with injury I could see him outproducing an also oft-injured Hafner and rookie Segura.
Prado gives you flexibility as well as solid-unspectacular numbers, while Shelby looks like his minor league track record is carrying over (SSS). Closers are a dime a dozen and Shelby is higher upside than Milone.
Good job. I spent too much time on this.
prolly should look into leagues that arent 12-and-under only
I’m 23 and the youngest player in my league
ya gotta pay the troll toll
if you want this boy’s hole
Both of those deals are almost offensive. You annihilated your trade partners, if you ask me — and I like Travis Hafner more than the next guy. The JJ / Milone for Prado / Miller deal is insane, you got a steal there.
How the H-E double hockey sticks did you get Chase Utley for those two? Hafner is not owned in either league I’m in and we have 29 man rosters. Segura just recently got picked up.
person I was trading with lost Reyes
I’d rather have Hafner/Segura. I guess it’s a matter of perception, huh? Utley’s not going to be healthy all season.
I’d also rather have Segura than Utley, never mind Hafner.
You’d really rather have Jean Segura than Chase Utley? I mean, Segura’s a shortstop, and that’s very nice — and the ability to steal bases is valuable — but there’s almost a zero percent chance he continues to hit this well over the course of the season. Utley mashes when he’s on the field.
Adding to the “hey I just made a trade with the guys you mentioned!” comments, although this wasn’t a straight hitting-for-pitching swap:
I gave: Holliday, Wainwright, and Rutledge
I got: Kemp, Gallardo, Ian Kennedy
It was tough dealing Wainwright but I don’t think Gallardo is a huge drop-off (notorious for bad Aprils, but pretty much a lock for 200+ K). I also love buying low, which I think I was doing on all 3 guys.
So the way I see it, you upgraded from Holliday to Kemp, downgraded from Waino to Gallardo, and upgraded from Rutledge to Kennedy. All things considered, I take your end of the deal, because I’m not a big believer in Rutledge. Gallardo’s Ks and consistency are underrated, even if he may not be the best bet for wins.
Pretty much, yes. It’s a H2H daily league with QS (no wins), K’s, and IP as categories, so I was looking to add depth to my SP rotation to just rack up the stats in those 3 categories at the possible expense of my ERA and WHIP (although I can still easily win those two categories any given week). Rotation now is Price, Medlen, Gallardo, Kennedy, Homer Bailey, Villanueva, Jose Fernandez, Cingrani, Griffin, Garza (DL).
Also, I do like Rutledge but my 2B/SS/MI consists of Phillips, Rollins, Hill (DL right after trade), Hanley (DL, returning soon), and R. Weeks (fill-in until Hanley returns), so I could afford to deal him.
I sent out R.A. Dickey for Jay Bruce during the preseason. Other team was a mountain of power, while I had (and still do have) great pitching.
While I slightly prefer Dickey to Bruce in a vacuum, I think you did pretty well here, provided the average on Bruce doesn’t drag you down too much.
Oh, so much depends on your league. I got Holliday in the 8th round (!!!) after getting Justin Upton in the 4th. I offered Holliday to different owners for Wainright, Gio Gonzalez, and Chris Sale. Each led to negotiations–at one point, I was close to Holliday & bat for Jered Weaver & arm; the Sale guy liked to offer but felt his pitching couldn’t take the hit–but no one was giving away Holliday for a top 10-15 pitcher. This just reminds us that context is key: in some places, a top 20 outfielder is worth a top 15 pitcher, but in others, no way.
Sounds like your league drastically undervalues Holliday. Your benefit, I guess — 8th round is bananas for a guy with his skills.
I traded Matt Holliday and Jason Kipnis two weeks ago for Pedroia and Peavy. I was really concerned about Kipnis even if it was early, and had a very deep outfield. Since then Kipnis has been hurt, but I don’t see him returning to his first half of last season’s production again.
Well, Peavy and Kipnis may be making you look good for now, but I would usually take Holliday / Kipnis in a vacuum. That having been said, if you really did have outfield depth, I think you got a very nice return.
You’d rather have Holliday and Kipnis than Pedie and Peavy? (clarification is in order after some syntax errors in your response)
If so, then I’d have to disagree, Pedroia is the best player in that deal, even if you don’t consider positional eligibility, and given that right now I would take Peavy over Kipnis (especially if you have Pedroia coming in to fill that 2B slot), This is a great deal. The advantage becomes even more accentuated if this is a shallow 10-12 team league with free, daily, add/drops. Because you can easily fill the vacated spot in your OF with hot FAs like Gomez, Cain, Nava, or any of the rest of the parade of OFs over the course of the season who will give 2 weeks of great HR/SB production.
Yup, I’d rather have Holliday and Kipnis than Pedroia and Peavy. If you look at 2012 stats, Pedroia was only superior to Kipnis in batting average. I feel like we might see similar performances this year, so the dropoff isn’t *that* substantial in my view.
So that upgrade isn’t quite enough to counteract the downgrade from Holliday to Peavy, in my mind. I’m a big Holliday proponent, and Peavy is just still too risky, in my view. Now, if I had a huge hole in the rotation and an over-stacked outfield, I’d consider this deal and take the downgrade … but in a vacuum, I’d take the side getting two very good position players.
Great timing! I just traded Rizzo straight up for Ryu. With Upton, Utley, Bruce and Beltre HRs are not a problem for me but with Greinke down I needed some pitching. Replacing Rizzo with more steals and higher average makes this a value increase I think.
In most standard leagues, I feel like you can get a reasonable replacement 1B on the wire — even though the NL is a bit light these days. So many guys get 1B eligibility.
But Ryu — I’m not a huge fan, though he’s been effective so far. I’d keep Rizzo, and would’ve rather moved someone else (like maybe Bruce) for a better starter, if possible.
Random question of day: Beckett or Haren for rest of year?
Beckett, I guess — but to be fair, I may be skewed by the April small sample. Before the season started, I would’ve said Haren, but now I’d say Beckett, if for no other reason than that both might be bad but Beckett still pitches in the Ravine.
But yuck.
Have Kershaw/Cain/Latos/Moore, need outfield hitting pretty bad. Who should I trade?
Depends on who you can get in return. Right now I wouldn’t deal Moore or Kershaw, and Cain might not get you enough in trade given the slow start. That means Latos, almost by default.
I just got Adam Dunn giving up Jason Hammel, what do you guys think?
I like it a lot!
I’m looking to deal Matt Harvey in a shallow-to-medium rotisserie league.
What kind of bat would be appropriate at this point?
One-for-ones for BJ Upton, Jay Bruce, Matt Holliday & Allen Craig were all shot down by opposing owners. But there is no way I’m dropping down to Torii Hunter level returns.
I’d say the BJ Upton guy needs to have his head examined.
I’d say any of those bats would be appropriate in a shallow league … I’m a big believer in Harvey. Don’t go lower than the last three guys — and don’t take Upton in trade.
If no one’s going to give you very good value for Harvey, maybe you’d want to consider trading someone else?
I just moved Choo to get Chapman with only Mujica and Bailey as my closers. League counts SVs and K/9 and my OF was McCutchen, Holliday, Heyward, Choo, Cespedes, Morse, Cain, Granderson. Had some depth, albeit mostly injured. Do you think I can afford to trade another OF (we start 5 and a UTIL).
Depends a bit on who’s available on the wire, but with a couple of injury risks there, I’d hold at least for now. Great depth is quickly undone by injury — but if you can deal Morse for something good, I’d move him first.
What do you think about Ryan Howard and a number three four type pitcher ( Mcallister or Guthrie) for Morrow and Cain?
Lorenzo or Matt Cain? For Matt Cain, no question. For Lorenzo, it sounds about even.
I have fister, harvey, Shelby miller, Brett anderson, cliff lee, and bumgarner in a 12 team h2h league, but an absolutely anemic offense. Any suggestions of players to deal/target? I could use upgrades at any of OF, C, 2B, and 3B.
I love Brett Anderson, but the injury issues make him tradeable in my view. Perhaps you could get a small upgrade at two positions for him, or a low top-10 player at one? What about a catcher like Montero?
Deep on SPs. Need some offense. Gio for Shoo. Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
I meant Choo.
Salary cap league I have Cespedes at $8 for 3 years, harper at $15 for 4 years, victorino at $10 for 2 yrs, Parra at $1 for 2 years, Maybin $12 1 year and cutch for $34 4 years. We start 4 OFs, I have been offered Cain at $25 for 4 years and a throw in like D. Young $6 1 year left or Rasmus at $11 one year left for McCutchen. Should I take this deal. My staff is decent with Felix, Ryu, Floyd, and Samradjiza either Worley or Tepesch for my 5th or Bauer if he gets the call and but I am currently 3rd to last in standings. Is Cain a good value at $25 for 3 or 4 more years? The cap is $260. Thanks all.
I am looking to deal Holliday as I took Marte late. What would be my best option to deal for out of Samardjza, James Shields, and Iwakuma? Should I push for Scherzer?