Kicking Rocks: Trade Bullies
For me, there’s nothing more fun about a fantasy baseball season than the constant trade chatter that goes back and forth between owners. While the goal is, obviously, to walk away with a deal that you consider favorable for your team, I can feel just as good about a discussion that fails to culminate in a trade, but is still filled with good, old-fashioned baseball talk. It’s like spending a whole day fishing, not having caught anything, and still feeling good about the time spent. But nothing, I mean nothing, sucks the joy out of a spirited trade negotiation more than having to deal with a trade bully.
You know the guy I’m talking about. It’s not just the fact that he believes that he has the best players or that his strategy is the best way to win the league. It’s when you turn down an offer of his and, rather than try to re-negotiate the deal, he spends the rest of his time trying harder and harder to push you into it.
First, he’ll start by running down your guys. It doesn’t matter if it’s an up and coming rookie or a multi-year veteran, he’ll find a dozen different ways to cut down your player and explain to you how trading him now is your best course of action. Not for the value you think he’s worth but for some “realistic” value that he has somehow assigned. The guys he is offering, on the other hand, are the absolute best and you are a fool for passing them up. Usually that comes accompanied by some condescending comment about how you really should watch this guy play and if you knew anything about the game you would know the value he brings to the table.
You then try to counter his offer and rather than even listen to what you have to say he tells you that the players he’s offering are involved in other deals and you have to act now or he’s going to trade them away. He’ll tell you that he doesn’t want to because he likes your deal better, but he’s not going to have a choice. He has to act now. That’s when you get the time limit — “I’ve got some stuff to do right now. I’ll be back around three, so just let me know by then, otherwise I’m going to have to make the other deal.” More often than not, there is some indignant tone aimed at making you feel bad for not jumping at his “once in a lifetime” offer.
Later that day, you’ll receive some sort of an email or text asking you if you’ve thought about the deal some more. How it’s really the best move you can make for your team and that he hasn’t heard from the other guy yet, but he’s got to get a deal done today, so these players aren’t going to be available soon. When you politely decline his offer again, you receive that immediate message telling you to have fun finishing in 8th place.
But just when you think you’re done and that this guy is out of your hair, he’ll make yet another run at you. This is usually when he starts to endow his years of fantasy wisdom on you and explains the nuances of this particular league. Doesn’t matter that you’ve been in the same league for multiple years, you apparently just don’t understand how to play or see what this deal is going to do for you.
He’ll start telling you exactly what you need, how to run your team, and what you should be doing — all under the guise of friendship and good sportsmanship. Suddenly he’s going to help you. He knows more about your team and your strategy than you do and he’s going to help you finish in the money. You guys will finish first and second. But has he changed the deal at all? No. It’s still that same crappy offer designed at stacking his team and doing nothing for you.
When you decline again, you’re told you’re making a huge mistake. Your team is going to flop. You’re going to look back and wish you made this deal. Are you sure you don’t want to do it? This is the last chance because he’s going to have to do this other deal he’s been working on. You decline one last time.
“Fine. Good luck trying to get a deal done this year. Thanks for your donation this year,” he says in his parting shot and you’re finally free from the worst trade talk possible.
Atleast until he comes back to you the following week with the same exact deal…..
Howard Bender has been covering fantasy sports for over 10 years on a variety of websites. In addition to his work here, you can also find him at his site, RotobuzzGuy.com, Fantasy Alarm, RotoWire and Mock Draft Central. Follow him on Twitter at @rotobuzzguy or for more direct questions or comments, email him at rotobuzzguy@gmail.com
When he’s finished running down your guys, just say “After hearing what you said, you’re right. My guys are terrible. So much so that I’d feel very guilty trading them to you. So I’m going to hang onto them. Thanks for being so honest.”
If that doesn’t shut him up, tell him you have to go now because your pet hyena has mononucleosis. Then ignore any other contact. Works a treat.
Ok, I’ve done the time limit thing, so now I feel like a jerk.
But that was a week after he said “I’m thinking about it” (no counter offer) and a day before the season started… as if he was trying to freeze me out.
I think the guy who sits on a deal forever is worse than the guy who puts down a (reasonable) time limit.
I agree with that. Do people not reject trades just in case one of their guys gets injured? I could never figure out why someone would leave a trade sitting there and not respond to it for a week. Drives me nuts.
Last chance to buy low on ::insert washed-up vet’s name here::
Last chance to sell high on ::insert in-his-prime stud’s name here::
Just by giving up one player in Kemp (who will definitely slow down), you’ll be able to rejuvenate your whole roster by upgrading a little bit at C, DH, MI and 2nd closer!
The “act now” line always reeks of desperation. I’m in the middle of one of these trade negotiations, and I just find it amusing that despite all these great offers he allegedly has on the table he keeps coming back to me with a lower cost (it involves future draft picks).
BTW Howard, this is probably the best Kicking Rocks yet.
I know that guy!
the trade style that annoys me the most is the overly-complicated trade. Stuff like “I’ saw you’re looking for another Outfielder since Jayson Werth got injured.. I’ll offer you Alex Presley, Wilson Betemit, Sergio Santos, a 2nd round draft pick and Xander Bogaerts from my minor reserves in exchange for sean rodriguez, ryan howard, gio gonzalez and your 3rd round draft pick and plus trevor bauer from your minor roster.” you counter: “how about sean rodriguez for alex presley.” His response: “sorry not interested, but i can offer francisco cordero and billy butler for justin verlander plus your 4th round pick in the next draft”
Just tell me what you need, or who you are willing to deal. Not every trade needs to involve 15 moving parts.
I’m probably the guy who throws out way too many different trade ideas, but Im just enthusiastic. I hope Im not as obnoxious as this dude
Howard, good stuff man, got a few gems like this in one of my leagues, the Kemp comment above is awesome, I can relate…
Some guy offered me garbage, garbage and Kemp for Votto, Strasburg and Brett Lawrie in a 5×5 roto league
I laughed and responded by offering him Lawrie + bench player for Kemp & Cole Hamels, I’ve foune that the absolutely absurd counter is a nice way to get someone like this to step off the trading block
While the trade bully is certainly an annoyance, the apathetic trader is far worse. You know, the guy who has zero response to your trade offer and simply clicks “reject”. I’m not sure why fantasy formats do not require a response to a trade. As in, you can’t click reject unless you have typed a 50 character response.
For some trade offers, simply hitting the reject button is the only civilized response.
I’ve definitely employed some of these tactics but not nearly as maliciously. I usually try to read the guy’s team and “help him to see” hat he needs. My league has a lot of very casual fans who are taken in by small sample sized and unrepeatable performances. Only one other guy in my league has ever even heard of Fangraphs.
The other thing is that I often start a trade offer heavily skewed toward my favor expecting to be countered and settle on a middle ground. Often times the person just accepts my unfair offer (Hanrahan for Michael Young; Willingham an Axford for Hamels) without ever countering.
Finally I definitely love the strategy of countering insulting offers with even more insulting offers.
But if you start out with ridiculous offers, rather than other managers countering and eventually meeting somewhere in the middle, a lot of the time you’ll find people just thinking you’re kind of an idiot. And why should they bother trying top trade with an idiot? Unless you’re in a league of idiots. Maybe that’s what happened, and why your “technique” sometimes gets an early acceptance. Anyone trying that crap on me is lucky to get even an insulting response.
I never try this on the more seasoned members of my league. While I am good friends with most of the owners, many of them are just not very good fantasy owners and are very passive baseball fans.
Nothing wrong with starting with an offer you believe to be better than you’ll receive, but if the offer is clearly crazy, that’s the best way to ensure nothing further will happen.
I’m sure all of us find ways to point out areas of weakness in opposing teams that we can upgrade, and areas of strength that they can afford to deal from.
Then after you send the last rejection, he drops the junk he’s been offering you to the wavier wire, picks up some more and then offers that to you in some 3-for-1 deals.
Lol, this happened to me recently. I was looking for a catcher, this guy had 3 (Montero at UT, Napoli at 1B). I inquired as to what he wanted, he offered me Yadier and waiver-wire garbage for my 3rd round SP.
I don’t get it. You didn’t take Yadier? Pitchers are a dime a dozen.
hahaha i hate you…that’s me. Funny but so true.
I think the key distinction is the proactive element of this type of fantasy player. Sometimes if you are receiving these chump offers, you want to tell them that you have a specific strategy that you think is the best which is why you are not agreeing with their value, etc. But, these remarks are reactive to other players attempts to bully or produce ridiculous valuation schemes to inflate their perceived player value.
It is ridiculously annoying, to say the least.
if you’re going to write an article about me, at least get my name right.
Oh man, I hope you didn’t put the kibbosh on this type of activity. My normal league mates & I love fwding those types emails around and getting a good chuckle at such knuckleheadery.
So you’re in a league with Scott Boras?
I like trade partners who take the time to tell me why their proposal is good for me. The difference between a good trade partner and a bad one has more to do with how reasonable they are. In the example of “Trade Bully” the bully pitches a deal that is insultingly bad and won’t give it up. It’s okay, as far as I’m concerned, to pitch a deal that might start a little one-sided, as long as the proposal is negotiable and the deal-maker is responsive.
Also I am firm believer that insulting someone’s team is a terrible way to extract a player from them, does that ever work? I think it might actually be more effective to flatter the owner with praise, “you can definitely spare player X since you have superstars in players Y and Z,” and then sell your crappy offerings as better complements to Y and Z. That’s just good salesmanship.
Nice post. The hard sell is a tried and true sales tactic. Doesn’t work on everyone but some go for it i guess.
My most reviled fantasy GM is the guy that makes trade offers, without actually offering anything:
“Hey wanna make a trade? I like Pujols and Haren. Who on my team do you like.”
That message immediately turns me into Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction-mode:
MuthaF***er you’re initiating the trade talk… OFFER ME SOMETHING. If I liked anyone on your team, I’d have made you an offer for them already. When you do respond, they tell you they don’t want to deal the guys you’re interested in. Great, so you’re offering me replacement level shmo’s for a solid player. Thanks for wasting 30 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back.
Damn it…this is definitely me. I do the timing thing, pretend i have other offers, keep sending a million trades even after they say no, etc.
A good one i use which you forgot to mention involves prospects. When Harper got called up i tried to trade for him by repeatedly mentioning that “i’m sure” he will be back in minors soon and that i need a discount for when I have him on bench all year so that I can keep him for next year. Didn’t work for Harper…but worked with Trout!
Id rather have a bully than the dudes who are too scared to trade anyone. A guy recently lost Sandoval and so I put Zimmerman on the table for him. He was interested, but then immediately rattled off 10 guys that he wouldn’t trade. I have a league where half the guys are like this and it’s freakin dreadful. They seem interested in trading but only when it involves the bottom 5 trash players on their team. I HATE EMMMM. No guts.
Give me a league full of bullies over a league full of hand sitters any day. One of the joys of fantasy baseball, imho, is that it allows managers to play roles they wouldn’t dare touch in real life. Where else can one try their hand at used car salesmanship without stepping foot on the lot? For me, the art of the deal and the psychology involved is equally as interesting as statistical analysis, provided one has a captive audience.
Personally, I’m the guy who picks up a player off waivers and then sneaks him into a trade a day later. I also LOVE Taco Bell.
I can tolerate the bullies. I loathe the guys that offer the worst trades imaginable and don’t realize it.
Last week when Youk and Longoria went down in my deep 16 team keeper, I asked the guy who scooped up Middlebrooks what he would want for him. His reply was to offer Middlebrooks and Pineda for Strasburg.
This is the same guy who recently offered Felix Hernandez, Matt Adams, and Martin Prado for Pedroia, Longoria (preinjury) and Brandon Beachy. His hard sell was that Prado is a top ten 3b and Beachhead is still just a prospect. I kind of want him to die in a very embarrassing way.