Joc Pederson’s Less than Ideal Batted Balls
Last week, I examined a list of hitters who were near the top of the league in exit velocity, while also lagging behind their peers in terms of expected results on their batted balls. For reference, I showed the following chart to explain how batters have performed during 2017 (updated for current games over the past week):
| z-score | Avg xOBA | Avg EV |
|---|---|---|
| 0.00 | 0.346 | 89.32 |
| 1.00 | 0.374 | 91.68 |
| 1.50 | 0.391 | 93.01 |
| 2.00 | 0.406 | 93.96 |
| All | 0.326 | 87.28 |
n=395
Average EV = 87.28
Variance = 7.12
Std Dev = 2.67
I didn’t do well at explaining this chart, last week. To reiterate, at the footer of the table you can see see that there are currently 395 players with over 30 balls in play in 2017. The numbers shown in each z-score row, display the average metrics for all players with exit velocities in excess of that performance level. For example, those with an exit velocity z-score in excess of 2 have average an exit velocity of 93.96, with an expected OBA of .406 (on same scale as wOBA). Please let me know if any confusion surrounds this chart.
Specifically, I wanted to take a stab at answering the question “are there hitters with elite exit velocity who are not capitalizing on it?” and mentioned Yandy Diaz as a potential candidate. A mea culpa, this is not meant to say that a player currently displaying elite exit velocity can change his swing to increase loft, and maintain the same exit velocity he is currently displaying. He may be able to. He may not be able to. What I am trying to look at is players who have shown that they posses elite exit velocity as things currently stand, while having a less than ideal launch angle. Does that predict that they can make a change and the results will be positive? No. However, it may indicate that a potential change could be considered.
Today, I want to look at more name brand option than Yandy Diaz, in Joc Pederson, who is expected to begin his rehab assignment Friday. For reference, here is the group of players with average exit velocities in excess of one and a half standard deviations from the mean.
| Name | xOBA | xOBA+ | VH% | PH% | K% | OUTs | avg EV | Vertical | Spray |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Miguel Sano | 0.397 | 124.6 | 11.40% | 14.80% | 37.10% | 40.00% | 96.6 | 18.6 | -2.3 |
| J. D. Martinez | 0.535 | 168.3 | 16.50% | 15.30% | 18.80% | 22.40% | 95.1 | 13.7 | 3.2 |
| Aaron Judge | 0.439 | 137.9 | 11.40% | 16.00% | 29.20% | 39.30% | 95 | 12.1 | -3.5 |
| Manny Machado | 0.378 | 118.9 | 11.70% | 22.50% | 21.30% | 40.00% | 93.8 | 13.7 | -3.9 |
| Miguel Cabrera | 0.446 | 140.1 | 9.90% | 16.00% | 20.40% | 32.00% | 93.8 | 12.2 | 8.1 |
| Adam Lind | 0.42 | 131.9 | 8.00% | 21.30% | 10.70% | 30.70% | 93.8 | 11.4 | 8.6 |
| Yandy Diaz | 0.27 | 85 | 0.00% | 22.50% | 23.90% | 56.30% | 93.7 | -3.5 | 7.1 |
| Khris Davis | 0.368 | 115.7 | 10.90% | 16.20% | 31.90% | 43.70% | 93.5 | 12.7 | 4 |
| Alex Avila | 0.507 | 159.3 | 17.20% | 6.60% | 28.70% | 23.00% | 93.5 | 17.6 | 6.8 |
| Joc Pederson | 0.278 | 87.4 | 4.10% | 25.20% | 26.80% | 59.40% | 93.2 | 9.2 | 19.5 |
| Paul Goldschmidt | 0.476 | 149.6 | 11.40% | 16.90% | 17.70% | 29.10% | 92.8 | 14.3 | -0.4 |
| Joey Gallo | 0.341 | 107 | 10.10% | 20.70% | 38.00% | 53.10% | 92.8 | 25.8 | 18.8 |
| Gary Sanchez | 0.365 | 114.8 | 6.50% | 17.10% | 23.60% | 45.50% | 92.6 | 13.7 | -14.3 |
| Nelson Cruz | 0.388 | 122 | 10.60% | 23.40% | 18.90% | 39.20% | 92.5 | 12 | 3.5 |
| Ryan Zimmerman | 0.411 | 129.2 | 11.00% | 20.20% | 20.20% | 30.70% | 92.3 | 10.1 | 1.1 |
| Justin Bour | 0.374 | 117.6 | 10.30% | 19.20% | 22.90% | 43.00% | 92.3 | 9.4 | 12 |
| Yasmany Tomas | 0.333 | 104.6 | 9.40% | 21.70% | 27.80% | 47.00% | 92.1 | 8.8 | 1 |
| Freddie Freeman | 0.442 | 139 | 10.90% | 18.80% | 18.80% | 31.50% | 91.9 | 14.6 | 9.7 |
| Kendrys Morales | 0.391 | 122.8 | 9.90% | 20.70% | 18.90% | 36.80% | 91.6 | 8 | 11 |
| Ryan Braun | 0.358 | 112.5 | 8.60% | 27.40% | 21.40% | 44.40% | 91.6 | 9 | -1 |
| Seth Smith | 0.339 | 106.6 | 7.30% | 21.70% | 22.50% | 40.60% | 91.6 | 11.6 | 6 |
| Mark Trumbo | 0.331 | 104 | 8.00% | 28.60% | 18.90% | 47.50% | 91.3 | 12.8 | 1.1 |
n=22
Average EV = 93.01
Average xOBA= .391
Like I mentioned last week, that’s some pretty elite company. While hitting the ball hard does not guarantee success, as we see based on a couple of names on the list, it is the apparent best thing a player can do in order to increase their expected results when making contact.
So why hasn’t Pederson been able to capitalize on the exit velocity he has possesses? The issue is much the same as Diaz. A very small portion of the batted balls he is hitting are at launch angles that would make the contact valuable. To phrase it another way, he hits the ball hard. However, the ball isn’t hit at a launch angle that allows the elite exit velocity to be as valuable as it would otherwise be. We know that balls hit under zero degrees, and over thirty nine degrees are the least valuable batted balls, and this season, nearly 65 percent of his batted balls fallen into the above buckets.
| BIP | H | 1B | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | BABIP | BACON | wOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 138,986 | 26,910 | 24,854 | 1,956 | 100 | 0 | .194 | .194 | .209 | .194 | .194 | .176 |
| BIP | H | 1B | 2B | 3B | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | BABIP | BACON | wOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 55186 | 2386 | 1164 | 588 | 54 | 580 | 0.044 | 0.043 | 0.089 | 0.033 | 0.043 | 0.055 |
While Pederson doesn’t have the exact same problem as Diaz, who is hitting zero balls in the air, he appears to have had a problem making valuable contact during 2017. While he should certainly regress based on career norms and that should work in his favor, it is clear that so far in 2017 his batted ball results pain a profile with which it is difficult to sustain success.
| Lg Avg EV | BIP | Avg EV | Vertical | Spray | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| x<0 | 81.6 | 34 | 90.0 | -23.1 | 2.8 |
| 0-10 | 93.0 | 7 | 102.3 | 5.2 | 6.2 |
| 10-19 | 92.8 | 11 | 102.2 | 15.0 | 14.1 |
| 19-26 | 91.9 | 1 | 87.6 | 20.2 | 25.7 |
| 26-39 | 89.8 | 7 | 89.9 | 33.3 | 7.3 |
| x>39 | 83.5 | 13 | 69.9 | 61.2 | 36.5 |
| Total | 87.1 | 73 | 93.2 | 9.2 | 19.5 |
While Pederson displays well above exit average velocity, the problem he appears to be having stems from a combination of pop-ups and weakly hit ground balls (I say weakly hit, because, while exit velocity still his well above average on his balls hit below zero degrees, the launch angle is such that it is difficult for those balls ever to be valuable.) So the question becomes, is this a sample size issue? Is there anything in Pederson’s profile to suggest that this is a problem that is likely to continue, as opposed to just the lingering impact of his groin injury. Luckily, we now have minor league batted ball data here on Fangraphs, and can take a look at if Pederson has had an issue with pop-ups throughout his career. From this data, we can see that he has routinely run infield fly ball rates in excess of 15% throughout his minor league career. (I am using this as a corollary for pop-ups). While his ground ball rate in 2016 is a career high, it has been increasing since his debut, from 35% to around 40% to 49% this year. While he could certainly regress toward career averages, the upward trend isn’t ideal. Certainly a portion of this could be related to the injuries he has sustained this year.
So how does that impact him for fantasy leagues? Simply put, like Diaz, there is extreme cause for concern in his batted ball profile this season. This isn’t a case where his poor start is not supported by underlying skills. So, I’d proceed with trepidation. While he certainly isn’t doomed, he doesn’t look like the mid-tier outfielder he was drafted as in most leagues.
However, while he has made poor contact in 2017 (less than ideal launch angles), his exit velocity is not a cause for concern. To take an optimistic view, despite injury he doesn’t appear to be hitting the ball with less authority than prior years. Exit velocity is important. It’s more important than launch angle. However, you’re OPS is in the air, and Pederson could benefit from a change in line with this.
Joe works at a consulting firm in Pittsburgh. When he isn't working or studying for actuarial exams, he focuses on baseball. He also writes @thepointofpgh. Follow him on twitter @Ottoneutrades
“Is there anything in Pederson’s profile to suggest that this is a problem that is likely to continue, as opposed to just the lingering impact of his concussion.”
Pederson has not played since his concussion, so none of his numbers reflect lingering effects of the concussion.
Yes, Thanks. I misspoke and meant to refer to his groin injury from earlier in the year. Not the concussion. I updated for the error.
Watch a few Joc at bats. All of his problems that Statcast is highlighting are very visible to a mildly trained eye. Pederson has a ridiculous swing and approach, which directly leads to poor contact and lots of swings and misses. Unfortunately, I would bet against Joc figuring anything out any time soon. His 2017 has been exceptionally poor as he has the same absurd setup but he has toned down the swing a bit. The result is less power and all of the same bad swings. He needs a complete tear-down to realize his potential and I think he has had too much success(?) to go through that process. He is more than a hand adjustment or a leg-kick (pick your superficial arm-chair swing change) away from getting it figured out. Pederson seems like a likeable guy and he has some physical gifts, but he has some insurmountable mechanical faults that prevent him from scraping his potential.
Well, he may not scrape his potential, but he still had a wRC+ of 122 for 2015 and 16, making him the 6th best hitting centerfielder in that time. Even with this year’s small sample and injury riddled season and his cup of coffee in 2014 thrown in he’s at wRC+ 116 for his career.
I am not at any point saying that he isn’t a big-leaguer. I just get sad when I think about the divide between what he is capable of and what he is. A lot of his value comes from walks, which doesn’t float my boat. He could do some special things with the bat, but he is doing increasingly less.
I was just looking at Bradley Zimmer today and he looks very similar. 92 average exit velocity with a 4(!) average launch angle.
What kills optimism for Pederson is that even if he’s getting on base a bunch because he’s scorching a bunch of ground balls past the defense, he’s not stealing at a rate that provides much value. So he’s basically a ‘home runs or bust’ player, without any home runs.
I struggled with pederson because, while he is hitting the ball in the air, he isn’t really hitting fly balls. He is popping up a lot. I am curious as to if he can just minimize the terrible and cut the poor batted ball types.
To go back to your comment a month ago on Bellinger v Joc, the real difference between the two is the batted ball profile. Bellinger’s profile is much better, even with the violent swing.
See, that’s an interesting one, because we’re already seeing Bellinger’s K rates go up as he gets more exposure, to what extent does exposure also affect batted ball profiles? One would expect pitchers would not only discover holes in a players swing, but also the places where you can induce weak contact.
I’m now higher on Bellinger than Pederson these days because (1) I think Pederson has some demonstrated trouble with making adjustments and (2) Pederson is already in a platoon and who knows how he fits in when he’s back with Taylor hitting so well.
Pederson’s physical gifts are much better than Bellinger’s. Joc has a lot more power – he just has a hard time putting the bat on the ball. I think the two are similar in that they have pretty gross swings though that don’t look like they will lead to long-term success. I would not be surprised if Bellinger suffers a similar fate to Joc. Both are capable of running into pitches on occasion with impressive results. There is a good reason that nobody swings the bat like CB – I doubt he unraveled the mysteries of the baseball swing.
Not really speaking to their physical gifts, but their batted ball profiles are not at all similar. Simply put, CB swing is geared toward creating more loft than Joc, and that shows through in the contact they have made. Where Joc is only hitting about 11% of valuable fly balls, Bellinger is at 25%. Bellinger will pop-up slightly more, which is to be expected, but he is also going to hit less balls at the lower end of the spectrum (associated wOBA’s, and percentage of batted balls below):
DB – .176 Joc(46.6) CB(28.0)
GB – .436 Joc(9.6) CB(8.6)
LD – .710 Joc(15.1) CB(14.1)
HD – .730 Joc(1.4) CB(9.7)
FB – .502 Joc(9.6) CB(15.1)
PU – .055 Joc(17.8) CB(24.7)
Bellinger is hitting roughly 63% of balls in the air, nearly 20% more than Joc.
How much of this can be attributed to SSS and Joc’s sporadic playing time this year? His GB and IFF rates actually improved from 2015 to 2016, Im not sure 2014 is even worth looking at.
Joc wants to hit the ball in the air and has been quoted saying such:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/mike-trout-bryce-harper-and-joc-pederson-on-the-top-hand/
Even if he does end up as a platoon bat, he has a career 129 wRC+ against right-handers (including a 146 wRC+ against RHs in his sophomore season). Im not sure we can expect him to start stealing a significant amount of bases at this point, but it seems like he should be valuable nonetheless.
Regarding SSS, I’m not sure. I think that could definitely be an issue. It could also not be. It’s something to monitor.
Regarding IFFB, even with any improvements from 15 to 16, he is still below average (or his IFFB is higher than the mean). I knew he improve that year, but the general trend is that he is hitting more ground balls. My point was to look at if he has consistently shown a pop-up problem. Regarding hitting the ball in the air, this is something I struggle with. I know that Joc has been trying to hit the ball in the air, but he really hasn’t been doing so thus far, if you exclude pop-ups. He is hitting just 11% fly balls. For reference, the similar hitters in that 2+ z-score group are at 27% fly balls.
What calculation are you doing to get to 11%?
The batted ball profile above, we have 1 BIP from 19-26 degrees, and 7 BIP from 26-39 degrees. So 8 total that would classify as fly balls if we are not including the pop-up types of which he has 13. (Aside, these do not tie completely to the batted ball types on FG, because the classification possible with statcast are more refined.)
Calculation:
(1+7)/73=10.96% or roughly ~11%
To go back to my original point, I am interested in if hits have value. As apparent by the chart above, BIP over 39 degrees on the launch angle spectrum do no have value (.055 wOBA). So what I want to see isn’t for Joc to hit more “fly balls” but for him to hit more fly balls that have value, or under 39 degrees.
Ok, yeah that makes more sense to me now. Thanks for taking the time to type that out
No problem.
AND . . . Chris Taylor needs a place to play.
Taylor clearly deserves to play. He has a career WAR of almost 3 in less than a season’s worth of career plate appearances. He’s a versatile fielder and has made hitting changes and improvements this year. With all the injuries and older players he will get time all over.
Consider, though, that he was batting .233 in 49 minor league plate appearances this year. In his last 2 seasons in the majors before this one he hit .187 with a 39 wRC+ in 167 PAs. He’s doing great this year, joining the flyball revolution, with 155 wRC+ in 158 PAs. But a career 98 wRC+ in 476 PAs suggests some caution.
Pederson has a career 116 wRC+ in almost 3Xs the PAs. And he has had hot streaks just like the one Taylor is in. From July 29 to the end of last season he had a 158 wRC+ in 182 PAs. He’s also streaky. And he’s been injured.
Actually, Forsythe also had a very streaky year last year, also with injuries. And has a career 101 wRC+ but much better last 2 years. And likewise had a stretch of 150 wRC+ from August 8 to September 20th last year. I know that’s cherry picking, but he was as hot as Taylor has been now. With a tad more track record.
When all 3 are healthy (and Turner), they will all play. Not saying you suggested otherwise. Sometimes you need to spot the trend and buy or sell it. Just reacting to some of the twitterverse annointment of Taylor as necessarily a long term improvement over Pederson or Forsythe. You’ll need them all (and Enrique Hernandez). Good thing the Dodgers have depth as they’ve needed it.
Pederson’s FB% prior to the groin injury (in only 59 PA) was 39.4%. Very much in line with last year’s number. The IFFB% was above 15%, although that’s a small sample, so the wRC+ of 85 through that time may have just been early season small sample. Since the groin injury his FB% was 22%. Also a small sample. And the IFFB% was 11%+. But the post-injury numbers are a bit more concerning, but also a bit of an explanation perhaps.
The concussion seems cleared up, but he still has a neck issue, and looks like they will make sure he’s healthy and hitting in the minors before he comes back.
JD Martinez is having one hell of a walk year.
I’m sitting on Joc in a dynasty league and wondering what to do with him. It’s a points league, so SB don’t really matter, but he has to hit the ball to get value. Keep him or try to move him?
Nobody will pay you for him, so that leaves you with one option! You should have sold him on opening day, when he hit a grand slam. Anyone remember the praise article written on that hr he hit on a ball that was a foot inside?
I want to thank Joe for taking the time to address some of the thoughts and questions of the readers. Please don’t feel obligated to respond to anything, but it is good to think that you value the community.
No problem. Discussions are fun and some statcast data is nuanced.