How to Make Your Head Hurt Thinking About Trades
Or…Where Does the 70/30 Split Go?
You’ve heard fantasy analysts refer to the 70/30 Hitter-Pitcher split during draft season. In most league formats, it’s common to allocate 70 percent of your auction budget to hitters. They’re more stable as assets and harder to replace in-season. Two months from now, a top 25 RoS starting pitcher will be on your waiver wire (identifying who is the larger challenge). You probably won’t find a top 10 third baseman. There are other reasons to allocate more budget to hitters than pitchers. For the purposes of today’s discussion, let’s just agree that the 70/30 split is a). a thing and b). a valid process.
Last week, I recommended buying high on Johnny Cueto. I used Brandon Phillips as a player you might want to use for that acquisition. After all, Cueto has been excellent, but he’s also an injury risk due to his recent injury history. Pitchers are always a risk to land on the disabled list; Cueto is doubly risky on that front. On the other hand, Phillips is a steady veteran off to a slow start. He derives most of his fantasy value from a nice spot in the lineup rather than actual skill.
Well, some commenters strongly poo-pooed my proposition. To paraphrase, only a crackhead would consider Phillips for Cueto. In the preseason, we paid $7 to acquire Cueto – because of the injury risk (ask anyone) – compared to $12 to acquire Phillips. Those numbers come from Fantasy Pros. So for the crackhead comment to be accurate, at least one of three things must be true.
1. Cueto is more valuable now than he was in March. Ok, fine. He has a 1.38 ERA, 3.21 FIP, .161 BABIP, and 98.4 LOB%. The FIP shows he’s doing just fine even with the piles of luck on his side. After all, there was a reason I recommended buying him.
2. Phillips is less valuable now than he was in March. Phillips’ swinging strike rate is nearly six percent higher than his career rate, which could indicate a cratering skill set. His power is also down, but we haven’t played enough baseball to worry about ISO. So maybe Phillips is worth much less now than he was a month ago.
3. We set the wrong values during draft season. If true, this is somewhat understandable. I think a lot of us were waiting to see Cueto throw a few real games before we went back to paying the $14 he cost in 2013.
So we have three believable reasons why a Phillips for Cueto swap lacks punch. So that looks like a bad recommendation, especially with another complete game under Cueto’s belt since the recommendation was made. Prior to the season, we had data suggesting that Phillips was roughly as valuable as Cueto once we consider the 70/30 split. A roster of only Phillips and Cueto would have spent 63 percent of their budget on hitting.
But here’s where I have a question – and I do mean a question, I don’t know the answer – what do we do with that information? In a vacuum, should we be swapping dollar to dollar or split dollar to split dollar? And which way do we split the dollar?
Addressing the last question first, we probably want to maintain a 70/30 split throughout the season. Even though a $12 hitter is similarly talented as a $7 pitcher, that doesn’t mean we should do a one-for-one swap at those rates. In fact, there’s merit to the opposite approach. Because hitter value is relatively scarce compared to pitcher value, it might be most “fair” to trade a $7 hitter for a $12 pitcher.
As for which method to use, a dollar-to-dollar accounting is elegant in its simplicity, and it’s easy to explain. It’s also worth recognizing most trades are initiated due to mutual need. Nobody is going to fuss over a couple dollars if a trade gains them three points in the standings. However, if we opt for elegant simplicity, then we’re throwing the 70/30 split out the window. Where does it go?
At the end of the day, this is purely a thought exercise. Using projected dollar values is a secondary means of evaluating a trade; it’s always best to use whatever scoring system is in place first. You should still think about dollar values when making trades. Sometimes, it’s not worth making a mutually beneficial trade if you’re getting pennies on the dollar. In that case, you can probably find a better offer with a little patience.
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IMO our split between hitters and pitchers is factored into our $ values, or at least it should be. If you don’t think Yu Darvish is worth $36 or James Shields is worth $14 because that blows your pitching budget, then you should have adjusted your dollar values. So if you’re using adjusted $ values then in a vacuum you should be trading dollar per dollar.
IMO, what someone paid for a player at the draft is wholly irrelevant the moment the draft is over (assuming of course no ongoing salary cap or keepers based on inflating previous auction prices). Francisco Rodriguez or Latroy Hawkins were probably $0-1 at most any given draft, but if I need saves and have ample offense to spare, I will dump a $7 Austin Jackson or Ben Zobrist to get one (just as an example) and not think twice about what someone paid for them during the draft. Likewise Chris Davis last year, if someone picked him up for $1-2 and I’m trading a $20 or $25 pitcher for him, I’m not going to say “but you only paid two bucks for him and my guy was $20! I’m going to need you to toss some more value in to even things out.”
I agree entirely. I look at dollar values as if I’m going to draft today. So, what would I pay for Cueto today? What would I pay for Phillips today? What was paid a month ago is irrelevant.
Gotcha. I don’t even look at dollar values at all, it’s more of a “in what categories do I have an excess” and “in which categories do I need to make up some ground” type of exercise. Or a buy-low mentality, without actually assigning a dollar value to it. But even though or processes are different, we’re getting at the same idea, and good post and good reading!
I disagree in general, and only agree in the situation of playing time or injury. We know almost nothing more about a player now than we did at draft time. If your player values have significantly fluctuated due to this season’s performance unrelated to job/injury inputs, you’re overreacting to this season’s small sample size.
Unless, of course, you made a mistake in the preseason draft and significantly over/under valued a guy.
There are certain players who have seen greater than $5 swings in value. Cueto is probably one of them. Tanaka might be another. Blackmon since he went from -$3 to about $5 as the Rockies mostly leadoff man. None of those are players who were mis-evaluated heading into the season, we just know enough about them now to price them differently.
People in my league are still using this as an excuse to not do trades though. “But I got my guy in the 3rd round, you got your guy four rounds later!”.
Oh okay! So Cueto is no longer an injury risk and is now Jose Fernandez. gotcha! The same reason you were unwilling to pay more for Cueto at the draft is still valid. We knew he was really solid with stretches of great, but he makes us nervous. I would still add to Phillips to get him, but not much.
Or you could just have an excel file that calculates SGP based on Fangraphs ROS steamer updates that are conveniently provided through this wonderful site. This way you can compare apples to apples and see where the players value will help you most. I play in both head to head and roto and it lets me compare batters to pitchers very easily and make sure I’m getting value from that player in the particular category I need help in.
I have an SGP excel file based off of pre-season values and I can’t believe I never considered making one with ROS. Would you, or anyone, happen to know how often they update?
I just want to thank you know for giving me something to do while wasting time at work tomorrow.
That’s where I made mine! I’m not sure how often they update but I just made a simple one where I just type in their ROS stats from their player page so I can work on specific trade requests. Its got room for like 10 players total and works wonders in finding value when working on trades. Whenever I get a request I go plug in the ROS player values and see if its something to pursue.
ZiPS/Steamer update daily, although the playing time updates are dependent on those managing the depth charts. If the NL East ever looks wrong, yell at me.
Someone in my league got Cueto for Bonifacio a couple days ago…brutal
Candy from baby: taken!
Those are the owners I don’t invite back.
I say that, but it’s not true. I shouldn’t invite them back.
how was THAT not vetoed??? my lord
Veto that? I would hate to be in your league where you think every deal not involving you needs your input. Vetos are for sad sack owners who are too useless to pull off deals where they win and the other guy loses ala this example. Unbalanced trades happen all the time. Vetos should only be for exceptional cases and this trade isn’t one. It’s a savvy owner who hoodwinked another owner. Nothing wrong with that. Trades do not have to be fair.
A simple acid test is: could either owner win this trade. That’s almost always true when pitchers are involved. Bonifacio is an every day leadoff man, he could easily hit .290 with 100 runs and 45 SB in a slightly lucky season. Sure the rest of the game is absent, but that line can still make or break a season.
Cueto could break tomorrow. Of he could pitch to a 3.60 ERA RoS, which might make him a negative asset.
Bottom line, it’s not a smart trade but it isn’t unconscionable.
The hitting/pitching value split should obviously be identical just after your draft to what it was just before your draft. Otherwise your whole draft process would be irrational — you’d be striving to draft a team you’d regret having drafted as soon as its over. A $7 hitter is worth a $7 pitcher. I’d love to play in a league where people thought a $7 hitter was worth a $12 pitcher one month into the season — I’d draft with the LIMA plan and buy my entire pitching staff in the trade market by the end of April. Likewise if a $7 pitcher were worth a $12 hitter by late April — I’d probably spend over half of my auction budget on pitching and do a couple of trades like Bailey for Fielder or Cashner for Pujols at the end of the month.
Any case for late-April player evaluation which would logically argue for drafting a radically imbalanced team and then balancing it for a hefty profit by the end of April is clearly a bad one. Your draft day split in league aggregate hitting/pitching value should persist during the season.
Im in a Dynasty keeper league and i just made a trade, headlined by myself trading away Cueto for the injured Machado. Considering I have Miggy at 3b and hes going to loose that designation next year, I think I made a good move setting my team up for the future.
Obviously it’s a bad trade for this year as Machado doesn’t figure to be much better than replacement level even in a dynasty. But long term, that’s a huge steal.
Especially because we have a salary cap and Cueto is going to get paid next year or the year after
For me this is mostly #1, and that it’s not just specific to Cueto. Pitcher values change pretty drastically during the season based on performance, for good reason. A decent amount of the 70/30 split is about pricing in the variability and uncertainty of starting pitching. Small sample sizes take on a bit more meaning; changes in velocity and repertoire can signal lasting, permanent value shifts.
Regarding Cueto specifically, the bulk of owners who drafted or bought him did so based on his healthy upside and were looking for the reduced premium his injury risk presented. This mindset doesn’t really lend itself to selling high. It’s true there may be owners who bought him based on value alone, or bought him with the idea of flipping him after a few good starts, but I’d argue that most Cueto owners are likely to choose riding the performance versus cashing in for a less risky asset, just based on the original roster decision.
Hey Brad I was offered Ventura Quintana and Janssen for Minor and Ervin Santana in a H2H Points league any thoughts?
Keeper? Do you need saves? Who will you cut?
I was offered Devin Mesoraco for David Robertson. 10 team 5×5 roto, 1 catcher. I currently have 4 guys getting saves (Robertson, F.Rodriguez, Kimbrel, Farnsworth) and Gattis is my current catcher (W.Ramos is on my DL). I need help with HR, RBI, SLG. Should I go with this trade, or am I better off sticking with Gattis and maybe Ramos and using my extra reliever to trade for some other need down the line?
Mesoraco’s hot bat is hard to ignore, and I can always slide Gattis to the outfield. But I know that Devin can’t keep up his blistering pace and I don’t want to be holding the bag when the regression comes.
Keep Robertson, though you should be able to do better than Gattis on the waiver wire.
Here’s the top 17 C. Most of them are an upgrade to Gattis.
Thanks, Brad. Though were you trying to link somewhere with the Top 17 C comment? Also, Josmil Pinto is still available and Sal Perez just became available (Jason Castro is also available). Would they be a better look than Evan Gattis? (maybe after Perez breaks his slump)
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=19,d
There’s the link, I like Pinto and Castro more than Perez, esp. Castro since he has a set role.
Part of the problem with the proposed trade of Phillips/Cueto is that it’s more difficult to trade for IF midseason due to the different replacement level of infielders vs. SP/OF. Imagine a 12 team league. Every team in the league has a decent 2B, so offering the 9th best 2B in a trade will only upgrade a few teams. And for these teams, it may be a very small upgrade. Cueto, on the other hand, is a huge upgrade over most team’s worst starters. We may be talking about Cueto replacing the 72th ranked SP, which feels like a bigger upgrade than Phillips replacing an Aaron Hill.
My last point is that, depending on the league settings, Phillips is probably not among the first ten 2B drafted if a draft was held today.
Cano
Kipnis
Pedroia
Carpenter
Kinsler
Zobrist
Altuve
Utley
Lowrie
Dozier
Disagree with Carpenter and Zobrist being this high if draft was held today, just my two cents.
Maybe, and it depends on your league settings. But the point is that in a 12 team league, Phillips is probably not perceived as an upgrade over any team’s starting 2B. Cueto would be an asset to almost any team.
I like the shift in mentality in a keeper league. Right after the draft. You want to trade your $1 player for a $5 player because those draft values indicate that the $5 player is better.
At some point in the season (I guess when present values are more established), it becomes “I want that $1 player instead of that $5 player because he is a better value”
There are still reasons to spend more on hitting than pitching once the season has started, but I do think that the 70:30 split moves slowly towards 50:50 as the season progresses.
Part of the reason not to spend heavily on pitching in the draft is the high rate of injury attrition for pitchers, but as the season progresses, the pitchers that are still healthy seem to have a better chance of remaining so than the average pitcher before the season starts. (Though this may be arguable.)
Another reason not to invest heavily in pitching is that there are top pitchers each season that no one sees coming (more so than position players). Pitching skills can mature rapidly in very young players; and pitching skills can improve in veterans overnight due to changes in pitch mix; and effective starters, even newly effective ones, are hardly ever “blocked” on a major league roster by an incumbent. As the season progresses, more and more of those breakout pitchers will have been discovered, and fewer will be available for YOU to discover.
Put it this way: What if your fantasy draft was August 31, and your fantasy season consisted of just the remaining four weeks of the season. Personally, I think I would spend my resources closer to 50-50 in that draft.
Am I the only one who finds the pitching thing not true? Every year I seem to find hitters that pop up on the waiver wire and do well, sometimes flipping them through trades later, but a lot of times I only find a few starters like that and the rest are just meh streamers. Is it because I only play in 12~ team leagues? (Never enjoyed leagues bigger than 14 because they tend to offer less skill IMHO)
Are you playing H2H? Owners seem to like to max out on pitchers in H2H leagues, which makes lots of hitters available. Also, are you playing shallow rosters?
I assume that most people are playing 14 POS players and 9 P because it’s the gold standard. If your ratio is different then you’ll end up spending differently on your roster. I have one shallow roster H2H with my old college teammates and I spend about 60% on pitching.
Right now, I am in two H2H leagues and 2 Roto leagues, but my “primary” league is H2H (I say primary because it is the one with all my friends and stuff). Playing one shallow rosters I think: 3 of 4 leagues are standard ESPN settings, the other is a Yahoo league with an extra Utility slot (10 Hitters, 8 Pitchers, 5 Bench). However, even on the ESPN leagues there tend to be more hitters I care about than pitchers: For example, the ESPN league where I am leading has Yan Gomes, Lucas Duda, Ike Davis, Mike Olt, Danny Espinosa, Kyle Seager, Nick Castellanos, Kelly Johnson, Chris Owings, Derek Jeter and a lot of OFers I won’t go into so this comment isn’t huge on the wire. There are admittedly a few pitchers on the wire too (Ian Kennedy, Rick Porcello, Danny Salazar was just released a bit ago, I just dropped Corey Kluber though I might pick him back up and Ubaldo Jimenez), but last year I made a living off picking up players like Alfonso Soriano off the wire with savvy trading while going for top flight pitching (At one point I had Stephen Strasburg, Felix Hernandez and Justin Verlander all on the same team…and no, it wasn’t a league with only a few people, though I did end up trading Verlander and Strasburg away) and this year I’ve been doing really well by going for a more pitching oriented approach with a few savvy pitching pickups (Like Harang and a sweet Travis Wood pickup), but a lot more hitting pickups (Matt Joyce, George Spriner, Brian Dozier in basically every league I did not draft him, Billy Hamilton in a league someone got him cheap late and then dropped him). But then again it might just be because I find streaming hurts more than helps, so I don’t do it, thus increasing the value of stable SP for me? I dunno. I do agree that H2H leagues seem a bit more pitching oriented, at least on the starting side (Relief pitchers are basically useless outside saves in H2H).
I’m coming here cause I need help from the FBB community. I have Freeman. Which of these trades would you take, if any?
Trade #1: Freeman/J. Upton for Cargo(COL) and Harper
Trade #2: Freeman for Cano
I also own Pujols, A-Gon and Rizzo as replacement 1B.
Thanks all!
Which do you need more, a second baseman or a second OFer? Both trades are favorable.
fwiw, Cano is trending in the wrong direction in terms of power output. He hits too many GBs.
My OF are Trout, Upton and Werth…and Moss is 1B/OF.
My 2B are Walker and Gyorko with Dozier on the wire.
What you think knowing this?
Well the immediate upgrade is obviously bigger at 2B. Do you have flexibility to put Moss/Harper on the bench? I think the better value play is to run Trout, Cargo, Werth, and a platoon of Harper/Moss depending on handedness. Werth, Cargo, and Harper come with injury concerns, so you’ll need the 5th OF eventually.
Or does your Pujols, AGon pairing block your UTIL slot? In that case, just take Cano even though it’s the weaker offer.
Yes for the bench options, we only play 3 OF and 2 Util. Right now Pujols and AGon are in Util.
Pujols would become my 1B with either offer. A-Gon and Rizzo/Harper/Moss would be Util spot.
I’m worried about injury too but we are also in a points league with -1 for strikeouts so I was thinking its good to unload J-Up now before he starts hacking away.
I’m totally confused….
Hmm…I agree, now is a good time to sell JUpton.
I might still take the outfielder deal. Extra depth never hurts.
Take the OFer trade and pick up Brian Dozier.