How Much is Too Much?
The best part of dynasty leagues is that trade behavior can mimic real baseball. When you’re in a deep 20 team format, the league splits into contenders and rebuilders. The prices for win-now talent and top prospects often mirror what we observe in reality. It’s fun.
Over the weekend, a buddy of mine asked me about a trade proposal he received in his dynasty league. He covets Nolan Arenado (who doesn’t), and a rival finally made an offer – Arenado and Dallas Keuchel for Andrew Benintendi, Miguel Sano, Rafael Devers, Josh Bell, and a 2018 draft pick.
That’s a hell of an ask. What would the Rockies want if somebody came to them and said “I simply must have Arenado?” Not those four specific players (they play for different teams, duh) but probably four similarly talented prospects.
The offer highlights the advantage of owning elite assets like Arenado. The soon-to-be 26-year-old Coors slugger has plenty of future upside. There’s a very real chance he’ll outperform that entire package over the next five seasons. And since his value is condensed into one roster spot, it’s possible my friend would be better positioned to win this season with Arenado than the bundle of shiny widgets.
Of course, it’s the future seasons that throw a real wrench into the equation. While none of these players are likely to ever match Arenado’s output, this volume of young, core quality depth is hard to discard. Even ignoring the scenarios where something unexpected happens to Arenado, any one of the four players has enough raw talent to reach a superstar ceiling. Betting on any one specific name to produce near Arenado is a fools game. Betting on four of them at once starts looking a lot more reasonable.
This is a situation that lends itself to falling apart. On the one hand, we have an owner who wants to extract a ransom for his elite asset. On the other hand, we have an owner with multiple elite prospects who wants to aggregate talent. How many prospects is too many?
My recommendation was to decline the offer and counter with Benintendi OR Sano, Bell, and the pick for just Arenado. While that probably isn’t enough to acquire him, it’s necessary to reset expectations. Speaking for myself, I make these sorts of offers when I see a desirable target. I can totally picture this thought process…
“Ooh, Benintendi is a good starting point for Arenado, but he’s not enough by himself. And I need a third baseman so I’ll ask for Sano. And Bell is interesting as a throw in. And why not Devers too, he’s just a prospect. Annnd a pick too.”
In this case, Benintendi and Sano was my target return for a fair swap. Note, I’m not necessarily willing to settle for “fair.” The rest were cheekily added to test just how much extra future talent I could extract. However, the way this negotiation ends will affect where it picks up in the future. These massive blockbusters have a habit of lingering for months or even years.
Jumping into my buddy’s shoes, my preference would be to walk the fine line between developing talent and contending. The Dodgers, Cubs, Astros, and Red Sox are doing it, and they look like dynasties in the making. While it’ll be harder to win right now with Sano than Arenado, I trust my managerial skills to squeeze some extra juice out of the roster.
While it’s very important to aggregate talent in the form of players like Arenado, my mantra is to build depth then aggregate. Only when I have more depth than I can possibly play do I pivot to overpaying for stars.
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I’m joining an interesting league this year, and need some help evaluating dynasty value. It’s a 12 team league, but each team only gets 2 dynasty keepers. Interestingly, for this inaugural year, those dynasty keepers will be auctioned off in the regular auction. Players beyond your two dynasty keepers may be kept, but at an increasing auction value each year. Dynasty Keepers are $0 forever unless untagged, and then they return to draft the following season. Is there any reason for me not to simply throw whatever it takes at Trout + Arenado/Harper/Correa/Altuve/Betts? I’m only spending this years auction money on future value. I don’t want to be bad this year, but it looks like the best move to blow the budget if necessary. Thoughts?
this is a stupid setup but yes
Agreed on both counts.
Most dynasty leagues fail during the first year. So I don’t agree with immediately tanking.
Well…I guess if you think the league isn’t set up for the long haul then that’s a good point. Gotta weigh your options.
Brad,
When you gave a recommendation to your friend, did you remind him that you have a habit of throwing out bad offers that no one else agrees with regarding your valuation, and risks losing this trade partner for low-balling? Or nah?
Did you just get done swimming in the ocean? Cause you so SALTY dude
Are you someone I know? Because I’m not aware of losing any rational trade partners.
No, I’ve read other articles from you. It’s come up more than once. The idea that someone doesn’t have the time to counter back and forth from low-ball offers isn’t rational is silly. Even if they’re NOT rational, cutting off potential partners at all is a bad move. Quite possible the other owner simply moves on to another target, and your friend loses out on Arenado.
To this trade, getting Arenado for that package is highway robbery. A top 5 bat who is only 26 and plays half his games in Coors? The package, while full of strong prospects, is one you might imagine for a 29 or 30 year-old Miggy or Donaldson. Arenado is worth AT LEAST that much, and insulting another owner’s intelligence in the name of “gamesmanship” is never a strong move.
Hard disagree, that package returns Trout+ or it’s not on the table.
Chad and I traded for both Miggy and Donaldson in the last year. One was Pollock, Byung-ho, and Triston McKenzie for Miggy, Dyson, and Chase Anderson. The other was Donaldson, Story, and Aaron Sanchez for Mazara, Kyle Seager, and Jake Odorizzi.
Nothing annoys me more then someone dropping out of a trade discussion for low-balling without countering.
Why would I send a perfect trade right away. I want you to decline the first deal I propose. That is the point. Then you look at what I said and we go back and forth until we are both happy. Maybe we meet at that sweet spot and maybe we don’t.
Sometimes I swear fantasy baseball owners have never heard of negotiating.
That’s one way to approach it. I don’t intentionally try to low ball, but I do recognize that valuations can be radically different. And if that happens to be in my favor, then I’d like to take full advantage of it. So I’ll start with a best case scenario to see if that’s close enough.
I agree that there should be some negotiations in trades, but it is also annoying when you get a ridiculously low offer and the other side expects you to do the work to get a deal done.
If I get an absurd lowball offer, it is not worth my time to figure out what it is worth to get you the player you want.
I usually avoid that by sending empty trade proposals. “I like Lamb, let me know if you see a match.” That even lets them set the lowball.
And these people probably think they are “anchoring”. No, they’re being douchebags
Yipes! His friend surely knew who he was talking to. Not certain you can be a judge.
I’m new to Ottoneu (taking over a team in 4×4 standard). Cant decide what to do with a $19 Odor. My team is absolutely terrible…
I’m legit looking at keeping a $21 Lucroy, $17 Ian Desmond, $3 Didi, $8 Eduardo Rodriguez and $5 Raisel Iglasias….total…
I’m not too familiar with 4×4 valuations. Sorry. My gut says $19 Odor is worth the dice roll, if only because you have the cash.
Thanks brad – my valuations all have this as about dead on value – some other projections are split (some have him low/some high). It’s the OBP being 1/4 of value that gets to me. Hard to make up for what i think will be a miserable OBP and a decline in SLG.
Instead of Odor, would you rather roll the dice on one or more of: JUpton ($29), Sano ($27), Rendon ($19)?
Asking for too much is a good way to shut down negotiations before they even start, though.
True, but any offer of Benintendi+ shouldn’t be too insulting. That’s getting you most of the way to Arenado in any reasonably deep dynasty.
For sure – there is a limit, I don’t think you’re necessarily near it here. A better example would be when a friend offered me his Trumbo for my Benintendi in a keeper league, and I laughed in his face… lol
Nice move, LOL does not stimulates trade discussion, it kills it. Everyone values players differently. He probably thought it was close and your LOL kills any future talk.
Sometimes that’s what you want. I’m sure Ian Riley is annoyed with my weekly offers for Jose Peraza in TDR.
My preferance. Quality out bids quantity. As Brad says I believe, manage your roster and find the depth through FA and minor trades.
This is usually my take as well. Pay the premium to aggregate talent. In this case, the premium was pretty extreme.
I had a similar offer in a dynasty league this year to acquire Mike Trout. Benintendi, Meadows, Duffy and Groome. Made the same type of counter you recommended and removed Groome. I ended up needing to give all four but I was willing to do so in the end.
That’s a friendly price for Trout. There’s a wide gulf between Arenado and Trout. Trout’s probably somewhere in the range of 1.5-1.75X Arenado.
With the assumption that the SBs don’t go away, agreed. Arenado has him in R+RBI and I wouldn’t expect that to change and this was in an AVG not OBP league (yeah, I know…)
Without knowing the full context of your league, that seems like a super light haul for Trout.
Try to construct a believable context where that wasn’t very light.
There’s a bunch of contract stuff in play. Trout is currently 9% of my total salary cap (25 players, start 9 hitters, 9 pitchers), but he doubles to 18% of total budget next year. All players going the other way are 2% or less and the minor league players are keepable in a separate minor league (10) roster.
It’s a full dynasty league, with salary escalators to double players contracts every three years.
Maybe not controversial, but is odor plus wil Myers for votto in a keeper league (no limit on years you can keep) that counts walks and hits paying too much?
Probably, that sounds like a redraft swap to me.