Be Patient When Taking Over A Roster
So you’ve joined a new, established keeper league. Or maybe it’s a dynasty, ottoneu, or some other deep format. The team that was abandoned has a couple good guys on it. Or maybe it doesn’t. Clearly, it’s not ready to contend. You have some rebuilding to do.
I bet I know the very first thing you’re going to do – shop your best veterans. In fact, if my experience is any guide, you’re going to really rush into the trade market. Both feet in, taking the best offer on the first day without getting to know your leaguemates, shopping offers, or researching past trades. You’ll swing deals with the zest of A.J. Preller, except instead an ill-fated attempt to contend, you’ll probably acquire a bunch of prospects who are one to five years from any fantasy contributions. And we all know how heartbreaking prospects can be (oh, hello there Fernando Martinez).
I’ve seen it happen again and again and again. There’s something about that new, broken roster that screams for attention. You have to fix it now. Never mind that tomorrow or six months from now would probably offer similar opportunities. The catharsis of now is too much to pass up.
Let’s ponder a dynasty scenario. You inherit a roster with Nolan Arenado and Manny Machado. Those are franchise assets in a deep format. You also have Cole Hamels, Glen Perkins, and Jose Bautista. That’s the extent of your major league roster, the rest of your team is an array of prospects and glue.
You probably do need to trade Hamels, Perkins, and Bautista ASAP. The probability that any of them help your next contending roster is low. Perkins is already hemorrhaging trade value while Hamels and Joey Bats can only go down too. Perkins should be worth something like a B prospect. Hamels and Bautista could each return your next franchise star.
Once you tell teams you’re looking to trade, the inquiries come pouring in…for Arenado and Machado. No need for surprise. You’re the new guy, fresh meat, and all the contenders want to raid your roster. Maybe you’re patient and tell people to look at the older guys first. Maybe you see some hyped prospects thrown your way and decide you can trade Arenado and Machado.
The thing is, those two elite third basemen will probably be a part of your next contending roster. They’re young, and they’re immensely valuable. You’re also wasting some of their best years so you shouldn’t be entirely opposed to trading them. But first, you absolutely should wait until you have leverage. When your rivals are feeling pain, that is when you put Machado on the block. And that’s when you can legitimately expect to land a serious package in return.
While Ruben Amaro Jr. was GM of the Phillies, he drew a lot of flak for hanging onto Hamels. Surely he should have been dealt in 2014. If not then, the winter before 2015. Every day that passed was a chance for him to get hurt, decline, or otherwise shed trade value. But Amaro was patient. He knew he had a top pitcher, and he also knew Hamels had to turn into serious future value. If he worked another trade like Cliff Lee to Seattle or Hunter Pence to San Francisco (both deals flopped miserably), then the franchise would have been better off just hanging onto Hamels.
Draw a lesson from Amaro. If you’re trading Machado for prospects, you should be getting a shot at a prospect with a comparable projection. Probably one of those Top 5 guys. You should also receive several additional players of value. A player who looks like a future Machado is not the same as a future Machado. We all understand the risk associated with prospects, but too often, it gets priced out of a conversation.
Sometimes, a deep dynasty league will reach a point where a lot of teams are only focused on prospects. This can screw with the supply and demand curve, making risky, younger assets equivalent to older, stable veterans. My dynasty league is in such a state at the moment. Rebuilding in such an environment can be a challenge.
Instead of taking the prospect driven approach, sometimes it’s best rebuild with major leaguers. Buy low on Justin Verlander in the hopes of swinging a profit. Give some Quad-A types a home just in case they break out. Try to scrounge up the next Carter Capps before he’s given a chance to be a closer. Be the first to the wire for Aaron Altherr, Derek Dietrich, or Odubel Herrera.
Pursuing such an approach can be frustrating. You won’t get to rosterbate for the next several seasons over your future outfield of Nomar Mazara, Lewis Brinson, Bradley Zimmer, and Nick Williams. Instead, you’ll be agonizing over which un-hyped call up to roster. Sometimes that un-hyped nobody turns into Altherr. He wasn’t a top 30 Phillies prospect last year. Now he’s a valuable dynasty asset.
If you’re lucky, you can then convert Altherr and parts into Kyle Seager. Then Seager and parts may become a star player. Rinse and repeat often enough and you’ll have rebuilt your roster without having gone through a full tear down. Chad Young and I did that last season. We still finished sixth out of 20. After a summer and winter of condensing value, we now have a legit shot at second place.
One big advantage to maintaining a major league roster during a rebuild is the chance for opportunism. While your pure prospect rebuilders won’t have midseason reinforcements available, you can take your pick of the best prospects left on contenders. Usually, they’ll have already dealt the most hyped stars – or they’re completely unwilling to do so. But they could have rostered a guy who broke out in High-A and is just now gaining notoriety. Victor Robles comes to mind as an example from last season. You’ll have a chance to acquire the next Robles at a reasonable price specifically because most other rebuild teams won’t have the right pieces available.
There’s a time and a place to go the full tear down route to rebuilding just as there’s a time and place to rebuild with major league gambles. Your strengths as an owner and the actions of your rivals will dictate which direction is best. But before you dive down either rabbit hole, take your time getting the lay of the land and learning about your new leaguemates. Your patience will pay off down the road.
You can follow me on twitter @BaseballATeam
Anybody looking for an established Dynasty to take over a team?
I might be. What can you tell me about the league/team?
See below link, chat on the forum site – rather not spam the comment section with the details.
All this makes me want to join another dynasty league to test my merit taking over a dumpster fire team.
Thanks for the love Brad!
There should really be a resource to register as a potential dynasty owner or league manager so we can get in touch with each other and find good fits for managers and leagues. Post your managerial resume or something, notable sleepers you nailed over the years, etc.
I’m in an established league that’s had to replace a handful of spots over 8 years, and most often we end up with someone’s buddy or coworker who usually doesn’t have the knowledge to hang with our group. Case in point, I added a guy midseason 2014 who ran another dynasty league, I thought he’d be perfect, but he tried to drop Machado on day 1 because Justin Turner was outproducing him. We eventually removed him and undid his moves, souring my relationship with him in his other league. I’d like to say if he read this article he might’ve known better, but I don’t know.
Thanks Brad, put all these “how-to do fantasy” articles in a compendium someday.
Yeah, that’s often so tough to determine. I’ve been in leagues where guys have said that they’ve had 7 or 8 years of fantasy baseball experience. But they take over a middling team and immediately trade away guys like Trout or Harper without even soliciting other bids from other owners.
The rest of us in the league are thinking: wtf? If you absolutely feel as though you have to move those players—and they didn’t because their teams weren’t all that bad—then shop them to everybody and go through the sometimes tedious process of negotiating to get the most bang for your buck. Some owners apparently have no patience and just want to get a trade done immediately.
With owners who are new to playing fantasy, it’s understandable. And you hope that as they gain experience, they’re less impulsive and take a more deliberative approach to trading.
But when a guy joins your league who has proven through links that he indeed has experience, how can you possibly know in advance whether he’ll be an asset to your league or somebody who wrecks the franchise and then leaves after a couple of years?
treyash9
I would love to take over a dynasty team
come chat here http://baseballdcfantasy.freeforums.net
2 teams available. you can scroll down and view the rosters. Rays and Mets
I’d be interested if you still have a spot or two open.
http://baseballdcfantasy.freeforums.net
If no one is there, leave your email and preference on which team in the chatbox and sign up on the forum.
Trading *now* in Roto seems like a better option, though.
Trading Cespedes at the deadline in H2H is so much more useful than 2 months of accumulated stats in Roto. The longer you wait, the less they are worth.
This is a topic I’ve written about before. Assuming you’re referencing a keeper league, I still think there’s value in refusing to make light trades. Last year, I hung onto Aroldis Chapman and Giancarlo Stanton for these very reasons. None of the contenders were willing to pay for them. Now I’m cutting Chapman and Stanton is full price to keep. But I’m happier having enforced my valuations.
I accepted M Betts for Buxton and Y Moncada yesterday. Considering the article, did I give away too much?
Not necessarily. All depends on the state of your roster. But that seems fine for a competitive dynasty. Ours has gotten a little warped with owners rebuilding via prospects.
My strategy is somewhat different in a deep, keeper auction league, then what you describe. In such a league, players such as Bautista and Hamels will usually have MORE value if you hang on to them until after the auction, because most stars come with a high price tag which is a burden going into an auction but not afterwards.
Also, the most fundamentally important way to improve teams in such leagues is not through trading; it’s through the auction. You need to target players with an upside and risk level that tend to produce lower prices, then use what you save for a few studs in areas of scarcity. That way, you acquire a combination of keepers and players you can peddle for keepers that year. Using that strategy, in most leagues, if you are an astute owner, at least relative to your competition, you should be competing for a money spot in year 2 and competing for a win in year 3.
That means targeting:
– post-hype guys whose play hasn’t lived up to lofty prospect rankings
– Minor leaguers who aren’t on anyone’s top 50 (those guys are already gone in deep keeper leagues) but who are close to the majors and under-appreciated either because of a sudden change in mechanics or because of systemic biases of prospect evaluators (short, right-handed starters, for example)
– Injury risks, especially those who will miss some of the coming season.
– Players whose strengths might be in an area that your league under-values; in my main league, for example, when we switch from batting average to OBP, many owners under-values sluggers with low average but high walk rates, something I anticipated and used to my advantage.
Hey Brad,
This is awesome and a propos of the last-place Keeper team I just took over. I have related question about which prospects to add in a minors draft. I made a few deals when I took over midseason and just submitted keepers for this year, so state of things is this (12-team, standard 5×5 H2H):
5 Keepers: Price, Cole, Posey, Fielder, Odor
2 minors call-ups: Lindor, D. Norris (basically free keepers but they’ll have to be one of my 5 next year if I wanna keep them again)
3 “minors” keepers: Urias, Franco, A. Russell
I was hoping to make the playoffs this year building off this roster (I also have 4th overall pick in the draft). But your strategy above would seem to suggest that guys like Price, Posey, Fielder may be trade bait for me?
More directly, I have 4 total picks (including 1:1) in our minors draft where I can re-tool my farm system by adding to the 3 minors guys above.
My question is: what sort of timetable guys should I be looking at in the minors draft? 2015 draftees, guys with upside and a year in (like Moncada), or guys as close possible to contributing now (a la Berrios). A bunch of the tippy-top prospects are already owned, but I’ll have a good haul to choose from.
What would you advise with the 30-year-olds and the draft picks? Thanks!
It’s all very league specific. This doesn’t fall into my concept of a dynasty, so you wouldn’t necessarily be best served by following my advice from above. Sounds to me like you should be aiming to win in most seasons in this format while targeting the best prospects available. If you need reinforcements this year, you should draft guys who will help this year. If you’re comfortable with your MLB roster + waiver options, then just go for the guys with the best fantasy profile.
I love the suggestion to target major league players over prospects even when you’re rebuilding.
I recently had both Marcell Ozuna and Nomar Mazara available in a keep forever dynasty. Everyone wanted the 20-year-old that has never played a major league game, no one wanted the 25-year-old with the top-30 OF finish on his resume.
The point is: prospects are almost always overvalued because they’re usually bought and sold at a price point indicative of their perceived best case scenario. You can get young, proven major leaguers for much cheaper. So not only do you get more bang for your buck, but you populate your rosters with players who will actually contribute. Rebuilding your roster shouldn’t mean resigning yourself to losing for two or more seasons.
It’s part of the bad valuation I’ve seen in so many leagues, both baseball and football. The notion that the long term value and long term potential of the team outweighs having a winning team. Usually when asked, something along the lines of “but if they all hit I’m unstoppable!” Or “I’m building a future dynasty”. Inevitably that player loses and then leaves to league because they realize that their best case scenario is winning in 3-4 years and by then they have paid in $400 to auto lose. I’ve had too many dynasty leagues break up because of this that its hard for me to even consider joining another public one. If I ever got into “serious” fantasy baseball again i would probably give dynasty another try in a $1000 league where this kind of play is discouraged due to the buy in, but it’s hard to get motivated when this is the norm in my experience
To take it a step further, if I were to join a new league, I’d *prefer it* to be “a deep dynasty league … where a lot of teams are only focused on prospects”. It means I can become a contender A LOT sooner than I’d be able to be otherwise.
Leagues like that fall into the groupthink of, “Uh-oh. My stud is 29 … which means he’ll be in free-fall in four years … which means in two years I won’t be able to trade him, because none of the other owners will only want a guy with two years left … which means I better deal him now.” That’s how people wind up pulling off trades like Josh Donaldson for Jorge Soler without the other owners even batting an eye.
Yes, contending isn’t synonymous with rebuilding, but guess what? This year’s trophy counts too.
What kind of person quits a league when they have Machado and Arenado under control? Get your point though, needed them to prove it. Literally just took over a team with Seager and Urias on my minor league squad today. Almost shit myself.
I basically followed this advice when joining a dynasty league two years ago. My initial draft strategy was to draft veterans with long expensive contracts (feeling that they were undervalued in favor of highly touted prospects). Perhaps predictably, injuries were my main downfall (Ryan Zimmerman, Dustin Pedroia, Ryan Braun, Carlos Gomez, Jonathan Lucroy, etc. [I’m the Brewers, we also got to start with five keepers]) and I have not made the playoffs. It was a risky strategy but worth trying. I hardly did any trading while everyone rebuilt their teams all around me (I didn’t like the prevailing negotiation style, where people start from an obviously unreasonable position).
Now I still have a few big contracts, but I’m working on filling in the gaps in free agency with the prospects people haven’t done the digging on (#5-10 at any given position). And I’m actually starting to trade.