Always Negotiate, Never Haggle
Yesterday, we discussed how to be a spymaster in your league. It’s a role that’s both fun and rewarding. As usual, we had a good chat session in the comments. I was also emailed a reminder of a previous life – an article titled “Negotiation is not the same as haggling.”
First, some background. Not many years ago, I was jobless and living in Atlanta. So I joined a temp agency. I told them one thing – no sales jobs. Naturally, they immediately sent me to a company with a program to develop temps into software salesmen. Being competitive, I outperformed the other recruits and was the first person to earn a promotion from sales associate (i.e. telemarketer) to account manager (i.e. the actual salesman).
I spent about two years in that job, writing my Daily Grind column in the morning then living, breathing, and pooping ad hoc reporting for the rest of the day. As a salesman who hated salesmen, I sought strategies to defy the traditional approach while still closing business. Clever and baseball obsessed as I am, I called it “pitching backwards.”
It occurs to me that many of my sales strategies and tactics can be applied to fantasy baseball. Today we’ll just focus on one – always negotiate, never haggle.
Haggling is an uninformed grab for more value in a deal. To a gentleman, it is uncouth. To anyone, it can be insulting. A negotiation is a two-way exchange. It requires honesty or at least perceived honesty. ‘Trust’ might be another way to put it. When closing a deal for our software, I would say: “this is how we value our software for your installation. Describe to me (again) your use case and plans.”
Unsurprisingly, our list price was a bargain for a few prospective clients, but most wanted to pay less. The culture of corporate haggling is prevalent (including my boss). After the heady days of the late ’90’s, companies now employ specialized buyers for their technology purchases. Usually, the first thing the buyer would say is something to the effect of “knock 25 percent off the total and you have a deal.” That’s haggling. I would ask a bunch of questions that amounted to “why?” I’d say things like, “I can get discounts approved, but I have to understand why you need them.” After a few conversations, the buyer would accept that I was open to negotiation but wouldn’t cave to demands.
Let’s face it, a fantasy baseball trade is a lot less sophisticated (or important) than a six-figure technology deal. As a salesman, I would often use time as a means to overcome budgetary issues. If you can’t pay all now, then pay more later. In our little world, it’s almost impossible to avoid some form of haggling because there is rarely an opportunity to use the dimension of time. Many leagues expressly or implicitly forbid players to be named later.
Still, there is plenty of opportunity to become known among your peers as a fair negotiator. As some of my rivals can attest, I often frame trade inquiries as “$3 Tanner Roark + X = $16 Jake Arrieta.” Or I’ll open by saying, “I was thinking about X for Y, but obviously we’ll need some other parts. Let’s discuss how we value these two guys to see if a negotiation makes sense.”
Basically, you have to lay some of your cards on the table if you want to hold a proper fantasy baseball negotiation. By laying some earnest groundwork at the beginning of a trade talk, it feels more like a negotiation. Most fantasy owners simply jump into a pattern of offer-counter-counter-walk, leaving one or both owners disgruntled. By properly prepping the discussion, you can have that back and forth exchange without the dirty feel of haggling. What’s more, your prospective trade partner is less likely (in my experience) to solicit other last minute offers.
The theme of these last two days is to be a civilized person. That doesn’t mean you should be a pushover. My leaguemates will be the first to tell you that I stick to my valuations. Sometimes we walk away grumpy, but for us it’s a short-lived feeling. We understand each other, we just weren’t a match today. We’re negotiating.
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The initial offer usually sets the tone for the rest of the negotiation.
Owners are always going to disagree on the asking price and the selling price of their players, but Lowball McGee is the one who finds himself wondering why no one responds to his emails.
lowball does not always mean lowball. I have a rep for being a lowball guy in one of my dynasties with a few high school buddies. Reality is that everyone else just values youth very differently than I do. The net result is no one will trade with me, and I have won the league 3 years in a row, and no one else sees how these two things are related.
I always tell people, do not get upset about what you think is a lowball offer. Normally you simply are not seeing some part of the trade.
I find (in home leagues), to my chagrin, an initial offer has to be made before there’s any traction. I’ve never had success with “What would you be looking for for Player X?” or “Hitter X + Pitcher ? = Hitter Y”. The response to that kind of communication is always “What are you offering?” or “Depends who Pitcher ? is” which makes it kind of pointless, especially since a lot of owners (in home leagues) are pretty casual in their tactics/strategy and not looking for lengthy dialogue to complete a fantasy baseball trade.
I agree with this, and it is a little frustrating. Usually I will open with “Are you willing to move X? What would you be looking for in return?” That is followed by “Make an offer.” Well, my offer would be a lot better if I knew what you liked instead of guessing.
On the contrary, I get tired of the guy in the league who refuses to make an offer and always starts the conversation with “look at my roster and tell me what you’d need for X”. Personally, I feel as if the guy is either lazy or trying to bait me into making an offer he sees as a win for him. If you want a player on my roster, do your homework first. It doesn’t take much to figure out where I’m weak and what I’d be looking for. I will not waste my time doing all the work to come up with a workable deal, only to have the other party turn it down. That is why I have no problem by responding with “Make an offer”
But when you’re targeting a player that generates extremes as far as valuations go, this can save you from an insulting offer that kills the deal before it starts. I’m with KB on this one when I want to make a deal but I know that a straight 1 for 1 deal won’t work because my ability to fill a specific need is marginal, but I know that I have the talent to make a deal if I knew what else he might want from my team.
I agree, In home leagues many owners are not trying to gain every single bit of an advantage.
What is a “home league”?
Is it a league with people you know rather than with random people on the interwebs?
home league = casual, friends/family… overall not hardcore fantasy baseball strategists.
It seems when I send emails like that to people in my leagues, I get ignored. If I send out a straight offer, it’s usually rejected without a counter offer.There are a few select managers that I really like working with because I can email them or send them trade offers letting them know that I’m interested in certain players, that I’m interested in dealing certain players, but I know that other pieces will be needed to make things work and they’ll write back thought out responses.
Some times we end up spinning our wheels because of valuation issues or more likely just not matching up well enough on our needs, but the very process of going through these kinds of discussions build relationships and understandings that make me actively want to trade with them and makes them my go-to trade partners when looking to deal. It seems to me that most people that I deal with only want to haggle, they don’t want to deal with trades if they have to think critically beyond the initial offer, and if they’re not clear cut winners, they don’t want to pull the trigger.
Same. In general I work well with about 25-30% of the owners in any given league, others basically ignore offers or delete them without feedback. If you’re willing to deal your absolute stud players to a casual owner you’ll probably see results, but if you’re looking for marginal improvements for each team, they’re rarely interested.
It can be tough because a select few want your best offer as the initial offer. You need to learn which owners respond to straight offers versus which owners will actually negotiate. There’s a guy in the league who always values his players more simply because they’re on his team, makes it hard to ever trade with him.
In fairness, I think we all do a bit of this. We obviously value the players on our team, that is why they are on our team.
It’s called the Endowment Effect.
@Brad: It’s more than the Endowment Effect. It’s also heavy selection bias. On average, every member of your team is on it because you valued them more than other people did. Every single one. You were either willing to draft earlier, pay more, or sacrifice more perceived trade value for them.
Worse, people instinctively know this. So when you’re trading someone, there is often the perception that you’ve lost confidence in them or think their perceived value outweighs their future value. Which is why it’s much easier to swing a trade when there are obvious positions of need, and almost impossible to swing straight-up trades (e.g., SP for SP) unless there is a clear category trade.
One key to successful negotiation is simply finding a good way to get in touch and start a casual conversation. Making a trade offer by email out of the blue can throw some people off, even though its the most common method. In one of my league we have a very handy message board on the home page where we can private message each other. Its a great way to start trade talks (“hey what’s the cost for x?” or “any interest in swapping OF for SP?”) because its completely non-intrusive. The other owner only sees the message after logging on. He’s already in fantasy baseball mode, and he’s a click away from seeing my whole roster and thinking about possibilities. I’ve found I’m much more likely to start a productive conversation that way. And even if I’m turned down, I usually gather a little info. If I send a formal offer and get a flat rejection, I don’t learn much of anything.
I like Brad’s overall logic for the last two posts: it pays to be nice. This tactic works super well for me in my main league when it comes to trade negotiations. I often start negotiations talking about something else entirely to build rapport, and I definitely cultivate working relationships with as many owners as possible. There’s only one owner in main league who I pretty much avoid..except to make fun of him and rile him up.
what do you do if you have the reputation (rightly or wrongly) for winning every trade?
Last year, I made one of the biggest trades I’ve ever made because I figured, if I’m right, great, and if I’m wrong, at least people may be more willing to trade with me.
At the time, most people thought I was crazy for making the trade. At the end of the year, it was clear I had the better end of the trade big time. So this isn’t helping me on that front.
Or the reputation for being a more skilled/knowledgeable player in the league? I think sometimes fair offers made by skilled players are questioned with the thought, “what does he know that I don’t?” and its enough to scare off a potential deal.
What do you do if you win every trade? Find a new league with people who devote the same attention to baseball that you do.
Have to agree with CM or simply play down to their level, experiment with odd strategies, etc. That’s what I do.
Or play H2H leagues where luck/timing is more of a factor, amirite?
I think last year I completely ruined a relationship with another owner because he took me to the cleaners in a trade a few years ago and I see him make trades all the time that seem lopsided to me. He inquired about a player who it turns out both of us badly overvalued, and I told him that I absolutely would not trade that player. He came back a week or two later with an offer anyway, which in hindsight I should have taken, and I repeated that I simply was not trading that player. He went on to win the league thanks largely to the players I turned down. I kind of doubt we’ll ever trade again after that.
BATNA- learn it, live it, love it.
My biggest gripe in my league is teams that fall prey to the endowment effect. Makes it impossible to trade with them because nothing you can do or say will help make a trade happen.
In a dynasty league I had an abundance of 3b last year, including Frazier, Donaldson, Rendon, Seager, and Arenado. I needed either a long term solution at SS (i had rollins), 1b (cuddyer and morneau) and any OF help with 4 OF positions and myers, dickerson, Cespedes and Cuddyer occupying those spots with Dahl, Buxton and Meadows on the farm. I traded Frazier for Calhoun straight up, worked out for both owners.
Now he’s come back and badly wants Arenado. 1b he’s got goldschmidt which is obviously above value, then some similar guys to mine like Laroche. SS Aybar ugh. OF Polanco and Braun may interest me, but not sure where to value those guys either. Pitching he’s got Kershaw and a few closers but not the elite ones and not much else (kuroda, ryu, quintana etc.). What value would you place on Arenado in a dynasty league? Am I crazy to say top 40? I see Aramis Ramirez in coors. Was also high on Rendon and received several offers last offseason to move him and resisted. Is Arenado + a SP like Archer worth Goldschmidt?
My instinct is no, which probably means it’s a decent idea to float. At least see if he’s open to it. You’ll probably learn that there’s no point for him to acquire Arenado if the cost is Goldy.
goldschmidt talks will probably start at donaldson or rendon plus an ok pitcher
C’mon, big nose, haggle. “Ten for that, you must be mad.” HAGGLE.
This reminds me of the sales discussions in the movie Barcelona. .
To me, the I’m interested in player X what do you want for him, is lazy. Not my job to build your trade for you. Look at my roster. You can see just as well as I, what might get a conversation started.
Your valuations of your own players and mine might be vastly different and if you don’t have significant needs it just make things harder. Imagine trying to come up with a deal for Braun to fill a big need in your OF, but you have rarely dealt with the manager before and he doesn’t have glaring needs. Is he one of the guys expecting Braun to bounce back a good deal, or is he looking to get something for a guy he doesn’t want to bother with? What talent of yours does he value if he doesn’t need much? Getting him to start talking about your players can prevent you from insulting him while gauging his interest in your players to get something going.